ὃς obviously must refer to Jesus, but I don't see a reference to Jesus that agrees with it in case.Romans 4 wrote:23 οὐκ ἐγράφη δὲ δι’ αὐτὸν μόνον ὅτι ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ, 24 ἀλλὰ καὶ δι’ ἡμᾶς οἷς μέλλει λογίζεσθαι, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν ἐπὶ τὸν ἐγείραντα Ἰησοῦν τὸν κύριον ἡμῶν ἐκ νεκρῶν, 25 ὃς παρεδόθη διὰ τὰ παραπτώματα ἡμῶν καὶ ἠγέρθη διὰ τὴν δικαίωσιν ἡμῶν.
Romans 4:25 - antecedent of ὃς
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Romans 4:25 - antecedent of ὃς
Where do I find the antecedent of ὃς in Romans 4:25?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Romans 4:25 - antecedent of ὃς
Hi, Jonathan,
The case of the relative pronoun (ἡ πτώσις τοῦ ὑποτακτικοῦ ἄρθρου) agrees not with its antecedent (unless attraction occurs) but is determined by its function in its own clause.
Here τὸν κύριον, though accusative (αἰτιατικόν) is the antecedent of the ὃς, even though the latter is nominative (ὄνομαστικόν.)
The case of the relative pronoun (ἡ πτώσις τοῦ ὑποτακτικοῦ ἄρθρου) agrees not with its antecedent (unless attraction occurs) but is determined by its function in its own clause.
Here τὸν κύριον, though accusative (αἰτιατικόν) is the antecedent of the ὃς, even though the latter is nominative (ὄνομαστικόν.)
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Re: Romans 4:25 - antecedent of ὃς
Ah, thanks - a rather basic mistake on my part. (Here's where Funk explains this.)
667.1 The relative pronoun agrees with the item in the inserted sentence which it replaces and the item in the matrix sentence to which it refers (they are the same item) in gender and number.
667.2 The relative pronoun takes its case from its use in its own clause (the inserted sentence), i.e. it takes the case the item it replaces had in the independent sentence.
670. It was stipulated in §667 that a relative pronoun agrees with its antecedent in gender and number but takes its case from its use in its own clause. This is in fact not always the case. The relative is commonly attracted or assimilated to the case of its antecedent, especially where the relative ought to be accusative (by the rule) and the antecedent is genitive or dative. Attraction is understandably more common where other items do not intervene between antecedent and relative.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Romans 4:25 - antecedent of ὃς
Your use of meta-language to explain this point is spot on!Mark Lightman wrote:The case of the relative pronoun (ἡ πτώσις τοῦ ὑποτακτικοῦ ἄρθρου) agrees not with its antecedent (unless attraction occurs) but is determined by its function in its own clause.

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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Re: Romans 4:25 - antecedent of ὃς
Stephen Carlson wrote:
As is the way you spelled τὀ ὄνομἀ σου. (hi, Jeffrey Requadt.)Your use of meta-language to explain this point is spot on!
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Re: Romans 4:25 - antecedent of ὃς
ἆρα μὴ γέγραπται· Ὦ ἀνόητε, τίς σε ἐβάσκανεν, ᾧ κατ᾿ ὀφθαλμοὺς Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς προεγράφη;Jonathan Robie wrote:Where do I find the antecedent of ὃς in Romans 4:25?
ὃς obviously must refer to Jesus, but I don't see a reference to Jesus that agrees with it in case.Romans 4 wrote:23 οὐκ ἐγράφη δὲ δι’ αὐτὸν μόνον ὅτι ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ, 24 ἀλλὰ καὶ δι’ ἡμᾶς οἷς μέλλει λογίζεσθαι, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν ἐπὶ τὸν ἐγείραντα Ἰησοῦν τὸν κύριον ἡμῶν ἐκ νεκρῶν, 25 ὃς παρεδόθη διὰ τὰ παραπτώματα ἡμῶν καὶ ἠγέρθη διὰ τὴν δικαίωσιν ἡμῶν.
The antecedent of ὃς is ]Ἰησοῦν τὸν κύριον ἡμῶν.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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Re: Romans 4:25 - antecedent of ὃς
A pun on Galatians 3:1, of course:cwconrad wrote:ἆρα μὴ γέγραπται· Ὦ ἀνόητε, τίς σε ἐβάσκανεν, ᾧ κατ᾿ ὀφθαλμοὺς Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς προεγράφη;Ὦ ἀνόητε wrote:Where do I find the antecedent of ὃς in Romans 4:25?
ὃς obviously must refer to Jesus, but I don't see a reference to Jesus that agrees with it in case.Romans 4 wrote:23 οὐκ ἐγράφη δὲ δι’ αὐτὸν μόνον ὅτι ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ, 24 ἀλλὰ καὶ δι’ ἡμᾶς οἷς μέλλει λογίζεσθαι, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν ἐπὶ τὸν ἐγείραντα Ἰησοῦν τὸν κύριον ἡμῶν ἐκ νεκρῶν, 25 ὃς παρεδόθη διὰ τὰ παραπτώματα ἡμῶν καὶ ἠγέρθη διὰ τὴν δικαίωσιν ἡμῶν.
Galatians 3:1 wrote:Ὦ ἀνόητοι Γαλάται, τίς ὑμᾶς ἐβάσκανεν, οἷς κατ᾽ ὀφθαλμοὺς ᾽Ιησοῦς Χριστὸς προεγράφη ἐσταυρωμένος;
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Romans 4:25 - antecedent of ὃς
Could anyone give an equally good answer without meta-language? Or with meta-language in Greek?Stephen Carlson wrote:Your use of meta-language to explain this point is spot on!
Carl chose to use a graphical meta-language here:
But in his reluctance to use traditional meta-language, Carl didn't really address my misunderstanding, so it's good that Mark didn't have such inhibitionscwconrad wrote:Romans 4 wrote:23 οὐκ ἐγράφη δὲ δι’ αὐτὸν μόνον ὅτι ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ, 24 ἀλλὰ καὶ δι’ ἡμᾶς οἷς μέλλει λογίζεσθαι, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν ἐπὶ τὸν ἐγείραντα Ἰησοῦν τὸν κύριον ἡμῶν ἐκ νεκρῶν, 25 ὃς παρεδόθη διὰ τὰ παραπτώματα ἡμῶν καὶ ἠγέρθη διὰ τὴν δικαίωσιν ἡμῶν.



ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Romans 4:25 - antecedent of ὃς
I'd say it's impossible because your question included the meta-language term "antecedent."Jonathan Robie wrote:Could anyone give an equally good answer without meta-language? Or with meta-language in Greek?
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Re: Romans 4:25 - antecedent of ὃς
But that's a characteristic of language and discourse, not just a characteristic of my question.Stephen Carlson wrote:I'd say it's impossible because your question included the meta-language term "antecedent."Jonathan Robie wrote:Could anyone give an equally good answer without meta-language? Or with meta-language in Greek?
It's hard for me to discuss the relationships among these clauses without some meta-language, because the fundamental confusion involves "cases" and "agreement" and identifying the antecedent", where everything in quotes is a term from the meta-language. Somehow, we need a way to discuss the relationship between these things to see "how" the text says something.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/