Hello everyone! My name is Tim and I am new to this group of members. Nice to meet you all today! I apologize for my first question to this group because it is not a Greek New Testament question but it’s about Greek translation of the Jewish Bible, the Septuagint.
The passage in question is Deuteronomy 24.
1Ἐὰν δὲ τις λάβῃ γυναῖκα καὶ συνοικήσῃ αὐτῇ, καὶ ἔσται ἐὰν μὴ εὕρῃ χάριν ἐναντίον αὐτοῦ ὅτι εὗρεν ἐν αὐτῇ ἄσχημον πρᾶγμα,
There are two phrases that are riddled to me. What is ….
“χάριν ἐναντίον” and “ἄσχημον πρᾶγμα.” πρᾶγμα I can understand, but the words juxtapose together leave me in the dark. Do you find it strange, maybe signs of an idiom?
Thanks a lot in advance!
Tim
Kyushu, Japan
LXX Deut. 24
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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
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Re: LXX Deut. 24
Hi Tim,
I think part of the problem is where you are putting the phrase breaks. Here are the phrases as I see it:
ἐὰν μὴ εὕρῃ χάριν
If she does not find favor
ἐναντίον αὐτοῦ
before him
ὅτι εὗρεν ἐν αὐτῇ ἄσχημον πρᾶγμα
because he has found in her an indecent matter
Some comments on individual words.
1. ἄσχημον (aschēmon)
Something improper or disgraceful (in a moral or social sense). This could imply anything ranging from immorality to a serious fault in behavior or condition.
2. πρᾶγμα (pragma)
Something improper or disgraceful (in a moral or social sense). This could imply anything ranging from immorality to a serious fault in behavior or condition.
3. χάρις (charis)
"Finds favor" in the sense of approval or acceptance. The phrase "οὐχ εὗρεν χάριν ἐναντίον αὐτοῦ" means "she did not find favor in her (before him)," implying that the husband no longer approves of or finds delight in his wife.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Re: LXX Deut. 24
Looks like you pasted the same definition. This would be a "a matter, activity, business, etc."Jonathan Robie wrote: ↑February 11th, 2025, 3:16 pm
2. πρᾶγμα (pragma)
Something improper or disgraceful (in a moral or social sense). This could imply anything ranging from immorality to a serious fault in behavior or condition.
Mike Atnip
May I not debate presumptuously; may I not be silent impudently. May I learn beneficial speech; may I acquire discerning silence. -Ephrem the Syrian
May I not debate presumptuously; may I not be silent impudently. May I learn beneficial speech; may I acquire discerning silence. -Ephrem the Syrian
Re: LXX Deut. 24
Hi Tim, welcome! Great question — and definitely relevant here since the Septuagint’s Greek is key for understanding how Hebrew idioms were rendered.
The phrase “χάριν ἐναντίον” (lit. “favor before” or “grace in the eyes of”) closely mirrors the Hebrew idiom מָצָא חֵן בְּעֵינֵי (matsa ḥen be‘enei, “to find favor in the eyes of”). It’s a common Hebraism in the LXX — not strange Greek per se, but a direct translation of a Semitic construction.
As for “ἄσχημον πρᾶγμα”, it literally means “an indecent matter” or “shameful thing”. The adjective ἄσχημον (“unseemly, improper”) often has moral or sexual overtones, so most interpret this as referring to some kind of indecency — echoing the Hebrew ‘ervat davar (עֶרְוַת דָּבָר).
So, both phrases are best read as Hebrew idioms rendered into fairly literal Greek. They may sound a bit awkward in native Greek, but they’re perfectly natural within the LXX’s translation style.
The phrase “χάριν ἐναντίον” (lit. “favor before” or “grace in the eyes of”) closely mirrors the Hebrew idiom מָצָא חֵן בְּעֵינֵי (matsa ḥen be‘enei, “to find favor in the eyes of”). It’s a common Hebraism in the LXX — not strange Greek per se, but a direct translation of a Semitic construction.
As for “ἄσχημον πρᾶγμα”, it literally means “an indecent matter” or “shameful thing”. The adjective ἄσχημον (“unseemly, improper”) often has moral or sexual overtones, so most interpret this as referring to some kind of indecency — echoing the Hebrew ‘ervat davar (עֶרְוַת דָּבָר).
So, both phrases are best read as Hebrew idioms rendered into fairly literal Greek. They may sound a bit awkward in native Greek, but they’re perfectly natural within the LXX’s translation style.