[B-Greek] Eph 1.13 - PISTEUSANTES

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Sun Sep 14 09:05:10 EDT 2008


Ἐν ᾧ καὶ ὑμεῖς ἀκούσαντες τὸν λόγον τῆς ἀληθείας, τὸ εὐαγγέλιον τῆς σωτηρίας ὑμῶν, ἐν ᾧ καὶ πιστεύσαντες ἐσφραγίσθητε τῷ πνεύματι τῆς ἐπαγγελίας τῷ ἁγίῳ, 
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EN hWi KAI hUMEIS AKOUSANTES TON LOGON THS ALHQEIAS TO EUAGGELION THS SWTHRIAS hUMWN, EN hWi KAI PISTEUSANTES ESFRAGISQHTE TWi PNEUMATI THS EPAGGELIAS TWi hAGIWi.
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This is, if you read the FAQ for the group, not the place for theological discussion.  Though we might stray briefly into that area, we try to quickly back away from it.
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This strikes me somewhat as being about as productive as asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.  I'm not sure what establishing an order of succession will accomplish.  The relationship between the main verb in the indicative and the participle is the question.  Generally, you are correct that the participle is viewed as being relative to the time of the main verb.  I would note, however, E. D. W. Burton's comment
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132.The general statement made under 118, that the tenses of the participle do not in general in themselves denote time, applies also to the Aorist Participle. It is very important for the right interpretation of the Aorist Participle that it be borne in mind that the proper and leading function of the tense is not to express time, but to mark the fact that the action of the verb is conceived of indefinitely, as a simple event. The assumption that the Aorist Participle properly denotes past time, from the point of view either of the speaker or of the principal verb, leads to constant misinterpretation of the form. The action denoted by the Aorist Participle may be past, present, or future with reference to the speaker, and [Page 60] antecedent to, coincident with, or subsequent to, the action of the principal verb. 
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Burton, E. D. W. (1898). Syntax of the moods and tenses in New Testament Greek (3rd ed.) (59). Edinburg: T. & T. Clark.
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In other words, to quote a line from _Porgy and Bess_, "It ain't necessarily so …"  It may simply denote distinct events.
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In this case, however, it would seem that logic would dictate first a hearing, then a believing, then a being sealed so that the traditional view of the relationship of the participle to the main verb would hold.  This doesn't necessarily depend upon the Greek.
 george
gfsomsel 


… search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________ 



----- Original Message ----
From: J.M. Pauw <jmpauw at hotmail.com>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 8:34:27 AM
Subject: [B-Greek] Eph 1.13 - PISTEUSANTES

Different translations of Ephesians 1:13 can give rise to a theological discussion about the time of being sealed with the holy Spirit. 
The discussion is about the aorist PISTEUSANTES. 
Normally an aorist participle is being translated as precedent to the main verb, being ESPHRAGISTHÈTE in this verse, which direct our understanding of this passage to a situation of 1. first believing and 2. after believing being sealed with the Spirit. So - for example - the KJV ('after that ye believed') and the NIV ('having believed'). 

Now in Holland people work on the revision of the old Statenvertaling (Dutch equivalent of the KJV) and they translate this verse as follows: 

'in Hem bent u ook, toen u tot geloof kwam, verzegeld ...'. This can be translated as 'in Him you are also, when you came to belief, sealed ...'. 

So, what is - grammatically - your opinion about this translation of 'when' in stead of 'after', making the sealing with the Spirit simultaneous with the coming to belief in Christ? For sure the question is not about the theological consequences of both translations, for I know them very well, but it's about the grammatical foundation of each translation. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.jmpauw.nl 
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