[B-Greek] 1 John 4:2
Mark Lightman
lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Thu Mar 4 17:18:48 EST 2010
Gareth wrote:
<I am studying the coming of Christ in the
flesh in order to determine if it
is possible to determine whether or not
Christ continues to have flesh after
his ascension to heaven.>
<It has been pointed out to me that 1 John 4:2 has
"erchomi" in the perfect
and that Greek perfect implies not only completion
but also ongoing acton:>
Hi, Gareth,
We have been talking a lot lately on and off list
about whether one should ever use the Greek
of the NT to establish or even support theology.
The consensus is, I think, almost never, or
at least very carefully.
But this strikes me as one case where it is
okay to do this. It is a simplification to say that
the perfect implies past actions which continue into the
present. The perfect does not always do this. Maybe it
does not often do this, but it SOMETIMES does this.
One has to be very, very careful about establishing a
"theology of tenses." I would say the tenses are used
in John more often for stylistic variation than for anything
else. But...
The verb IS in the perfect here. EN SARKI DOES go
with the verb. Yes I think John chose this tense
to hint that Jesus is still in the flesh. What Paul would
call a PNEUMATIKON SWMA.
This strikes me as one of the few cases where maybe
the Greek is saying a little more than the English.
But maybe that's only because I agree with the
theology here. That's probably it, to tell you the truth.
Elizabeth wrote:
<What ever we affirm about the perfect ELHLUQOTA
should also be affirmed concerning EXELHLUQASIN in 4:1.>
Fair enough. The false prophets have come out of (EK)
of the Church and gone into the world and are still there.
Mark L
FWSFOROS MARKOS
--- On Thu, 3/4/10, Womble Singer <womblesong at googlemail.com> wrote:
From: Womble Singer <womblesong at googlemail.com>
Subject: [B-Greek] 1 John 4:2
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Thursday, March 4, 2010, 8:18 AM
I am studying the coming of Christ in the flesh in order to determine if it
is possible to determine whether or not Christ continues to have flesh after
his ascension to heaven.
It has been pointed out to me that 1 John 4:2 has "erchomi" in the perfect
and that Greek perfect implies not only completion but also ongoing acton:
1 John 4:2 εν τουτω γινωσκετε το πνευμα του θεου παν πνευμα ο ομολογει
ιησουν χριστον εν σαρκι εληλυθοτα εκ του θεου εστιν
Does the ongoing quality of Christ's (first) coming encompass how he came
(in the flesh) or is it restricted to the fact that he came as being
something that will never change?
Or are we saying that in the past Jesus came and continued to be present for
some time?
I am obviously a beginner when it comes to Bible Greek so any explanation of
this verse would be appreciated or directions to a text that explains the
perfect as used in this scripture.
Regards,
-Gareth
---
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