[B-Greek] question

Yancy W Smith yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Tue Mar 9 10:03:26 EST 2010


You say POTEYTO I say POTAHTO, but other than denial that Hebrews is  
talking about the OIKOUMENH  hH MELLOUSA how do you make the denial  
stick? Bringing in Luke 2 how relevant? Where, exactly, does Hebrews  
talk about the OIKOUMENH as you suggest? I see the angels, but where  
are the shepherds?

Yancy

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:53 AM, "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org> wrote:

> Since I occasionally disagree with BAGD, I'd like to say that in the  
> vast majority of cases I do agree with the dictionary.
>
> BAGD says: 1. the inhabited earth, the world—a. as such (Ps 23:1 and 
>  often): ... Lk 4:5. Cf. 21:26; Ro 10:18 (Ps 18:5); Hb 1:6.
>
> A few commentators have taken the position outlined below, but I'll  
> have to disagree. It fits neither the meaning of this word nor the  
> immediate context. Heb 1:6 most likely refers to when Jesus as the  
> firstborn Son was brought into this world.  The new world will also  
> be inhabited, but then the author has to clarify that he is talking  
> about a coming world, and this is what he does in Heb 2:5 in a  
> different context. That Jesus for a while (in his life in this  
> world) was placed lower than the angels does not mean that the  
> angels did not worship or honour him as Luke 2 exemplifies. A  
> thorough discussion of exegetical options goes beyond the scope of  
> this list, but any exegesis should be based on what the word  
> actually means. The translators of the NET have apparently decided  
> that it refers to the second coming of Jesus into this world, based  
> on PALIN, but they do use the English "world" as every other  
> translation does, and I do not think one is justified to add  
> "heavenly" or "above" to a translation of this verse.
>
> Iver Larsen
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "B Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: 9. marts 2010 14:56
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] question
>
>
>> While I agree with Carl that OIKOUMENH in standard Koine Greek  
>> usage means "the inhabited world" and that in many cases it refers  
>> to the Roman Empire (BAGD 561),  in the text cited it is a term  
>> suited to the Son's reign. Yet here it is not referring to the  
>> earth. When the writer of Hebrews speaks of the present world he  
>> uses a different term (KOSMOS, 4:3; 9:26; 10:5; 11:7, 38). The  
>> language he uses here is drawn from Exodus, where OIKOUMENH refers  
>> to the promised land, which in Heb 4:1-11 is a description of the  
>> world to come. So in the text:
>> Heb. 1:6 ὅταν δὲ πάλιν εἰσαγάγῃ τὸν  
>> πρωτότοκον εἰς τὴν οἰκουμένην, λέγ 
>> ει·
>> καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες  
>> ἄγγελοι θεοῦ.
>> [hOTAN DE PALIN EISAGAGHi TON PRWTOTOKON EIS THN OIKOUMENHN, LEGEI·
>> KAI PROSKUNHSATWSAN AUTWi PANTES AGGELOI QEOU. ]
>> OIKOUMENH is referring what the writer of Hebrews says he is  
>> talking about in this section, "the world to come" in 2:5 Οὐ  
>> γὰρ ἀγγέλοις ὑπέταξεν τὴν  
>> οἰκουμένην τὴν μέλλουσαν, περὶ ἧς  
>> λαλοῦμεν. OU GAR IGLOOS hUPETAXEN THN OIKOUMENHN THN  
>> MELLOUSAN PERI hHS LALOUMEN. Christ's entrance into the KOSMOS in  
>> his incarnation entailed being made "lower than the angels (2:7,9) 
>> , but, as Lane argued, his entrance into the heavenly world (1:6)  
>> meant exaltation above the angels. So, 1:6 is referring to the mom 
>> ent of "coronation" when Jesus was presented in heaven "sat down a 
>> t the right hand" of God and not to the moment of incarnation. So, 
>>  given all the references to angels, God, spirits and the rest in  
>> this scene, one could do worse that translate "heavenly world" or  
>> "the world above."
>>
>> Yancy Smith, PhD
>> yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
>> Y.W.Smith at tcu.edu
>> yancy at wbtc.com
>> 5636 Wedgworth Road
>> Fort Worth, TX 76133
>> 817-361-7565
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 9, 2010, at 3:53 AM, Carl Conrad wrote:
>>
>>> On Mar 9, 2010, at 2:33 AM, ray marion wrote:
>>>> Hebrews 1:6 has the word "oikoumevnv", I would translate this  
>>>> word as home
>>>> or house. Does anyone agree. Please reply.
>>>> Written by: Ray
>>>
>>> Text: Heb. 1:6 ὅταν δὲ πάλιν εἰσαγάγῃ  
>>> τὸν πρωτότοκον εἰς τὴν οἰκουμένην,  
>>> λέγει·
>>> καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες  
>>> ἄγγελοι θεοῦ.
>>> [hOTAN DE PALIN EISAGAGHi TON PRWTOTOKON EIS THN OIKOUMENHN, LEGEI·
>>> KAI PROSKUNHSATWSAN AUTWi PANTES AGGELOI QEOU. ]
>>>
>>> I don't agree. OIKOUMENH in standard Koine Greek usage means "the  
>>> inhabited world" --
>>> the human realm. It is a participle of the verb OIKEW "inhabit,"  
>>> "make one's dwelling" and
>>> pretty clearly originally was understood with a noun GH "land,"  
>>> "earth."
>>>
>>>
>>> Carl W. Conrad
>>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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