[B-Greek] LXX Amos 7:14 A Perfect Imperfect? (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5

Albert Pietersma albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Thu Mar 11 14:59:05 EST 2010


NETS: And Amos answered and said to Amasias, “I was no prophet nor a  
prophet’s son, but I was a goatherd and a scratcher of sycamore figs,"
Al Pietersma

On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:40 PM, Mark Lightman wrote:

> Hi, George,
>
> How would you English it?
>
> Mark L
>
>
> FWSFOROS MARKOS
>
> --- On Thu, 3/11/10, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
> To: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>, "Richard Lindeman" <oblchurch at msn.com 
> >
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 11:50 AM
>
>
> I haven't been following this due to time constraints, but it seems  
> from what I have read this AM that it has to do with Amos 7.14 in  
> the LXX.  I am happy to see that Carl has introduced some sanity  
> into the discussion.  There is no perfect form of EIMI in either the  
> LXX or the NT -- nor is there one to be found in Homer.  In the MT  
> this is a verbless clause in which the subject is equated (or NOT  
> EQUATED as in this passage) with the predicate.  Thus, the LXX does  
> not precisely represent the Hebrew.  It is temporally set in the  
> situation where "YHWH to me from following the flock."  The impf of  
> EIMI would appropriately set the condition at the time when he was  
> called by YHWH.  There is nothing particularly "perfective" about it.
>
> george
> gfsomsel
>
>
> … search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> To: Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 8:03:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
>
> On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:49 AM, Richard Lindeman wrote:
>> It may be that the question of whether HMHN is perfective here  
>> ultimately
>> comes down to the question of how emphatic the author is being in his
>> statement.  Unfortunately Greek doesn't have an exclamation  
>> punctuation mark
>> to help us.  But, in rereading the verse in context it seems to me  
>> that the
>> author is indeed trying to be emphatic... in which case both  
>> instances of
>> HMHN might then be taken as perfective.
>
> I'm sorry I've let this go on to this point. I honestly do not  
> believe that
> any form of the verb EIMI can be perfective and that it's useless to  
> speculate
> upon it. Certainly an imperfect form HMHN cannot be perfective. When
> a Greek speaker or writer wants to express a perfective sense of "be"
> it is a form of GINOMAI that is used, whether in the aorist or in the
> perfect tense. EIMI has no aorist and no perfect-tense forms.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 2:55 PM
>> To: "Richard Lindeman" <oblchurch at msn.com>
>> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek]  A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
>>
>>> On Mar 10, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Richard Lindeman wrote:
>>>> Let's take out the perfective sense for a moment...
>>>> "I was never a prophet or the son of a prophet, but I was always a
>>>> herdsman and a dresser of pigs."
>>>>
>>>> I don't think it says one way or the other whether he is now a  
>>>> prophet.
>>>> It just seems to be a comment on a past state of affairs.
>>>
>>> And what sort of "perfective" sense are we supposing that the verb  
>>> EIMI
>>> should ever have?
>>>
>>> CWC
>>>
>>>> From: Mark Lightman
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:23 PM
>>>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org ; Richard Lindeman
>>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Richard wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     <How about an iterative imperfect?
>>>>
>>>>     "I have never been a prophet or the son of a prophet,
>>>>       but I have always been
>>>>     a herdsman and a dresser of figs.">
>>>>
>>>>     Hi, Richard,
>>>>
>>>>     Yes, that sounds good to me.  My only question would
>>>>     be, do you think the text means to indicate one way or
>>>>     the other whether he is NOW a prophet?
>>>>
>>>>     Mark L
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     FWSFOROS MARKOS
>>>>
>>>>     --- On Wed, 3/10/10, Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com>  
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       From: Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com>
>>>>       Subject: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and  
>>>> 2:5
>>>>       To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>       Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 12:14 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       How about an iterative imperfect?
>>>>
>>>>       "I have never been a prophet or the son of a prophet, but I  
>>>> have
>>>> always been
>>>>       a herdsman and a dresser of figs."
>>>>
>>>>       Rich Lindeman
>>>>
>>>>> OUK HMHN PROFHTHS EGW OUDE hUIOS PROFHTOU,
>>>>> ALL? H AIPOLOS HMHN KAI KNIZWN SUKAMINA
>>>>> ?
>>>>> "I didn't used to be a prophet, nor the son of a prophet.
>>>>> Rather I was wont to be a herdsman and dresser of figs."
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>
>
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—
Albert Pietersma PhD
21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm




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