[B-Greek] LXX Amos 7:14 A Perfect Imperfect? (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Thu Mar 11 15:11:55 EST 2010


14 καὶ ἀπεκρίθη Αμως καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς Αμασιαν Οὐκ ἤμην προφήτης ἐγὼ οὐδὲ υἱὸς προφήτου, ἀλλ̓ ἢ αἰπόλος ἤμην καὶ κνίζων συκάμινα, 15 καὶ ἀνέλαβέν με κύριος ἐκ τῶν προβάτων, καὶ εἶπεν κύριος πρός με Βάδιζε προφήτευσον ἐπὶ τὸν λαόν μου Ισραηλ. 
 
14 KAI APEKRIQH AMWS KAI EIPEN PROS AMASIAN, "OUK HMHN PROFHTHS EGW OUDE hUIOS PROFHTOU, ALL' H AIPOLOS HMHN KAI KNIZWN SUKAMINA, 15 KAI ANELABEN ME KURIOS EK TWN PROBATWN, KAI EIPEN KURIOS PROS ME 'BADIZE PROFHTEUSON EPI TON LAON MOU ISRAEL.'"

14 Then Amos said in answer to Amaziah, "I was not a prophet nor a Son of a Prophet, rather I was a goatherd and a tender of sycamore figs, 15 when the Lord took me away from the sheep and the Lord said to me 'Go, prophesy concerning my people Israel.'"

 george
gfsomsel 


… search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________ 




________________________________
From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
To: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>; Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com>; George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 12:40:18 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] LXX Amos 7:14 A Perfect Imperfect? (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5


Hi, George,

How would you English it?

Mark L


FWSFOROS MARKOS

--- On Thu, 3/11/10, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:


>From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
>To: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>, "Richard Lindeman" <oblchurch at msn.com>
>Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Date: Thursday, March 11, 2010, 11:50 AM
>
>
>I haven't been following this due to time constraints, but it seems from what I have read this AM that it has to do with Amos 7.14 in the LXX.  I am happy to see that Carl has introduced some sanity into the discussion.  There is no perfect form of EIMI in either the LXX or the NT -- nor is there one to be found in Homer.  In the MT this is a verbless clause in which the subject is equated (or NOT EQUATED as in this passage) with the predicate.  Thus, the LXX does not precisely represent the Hebrew.  It is temporally set in the situation where "YHWH to me from following the flock."  The impf of EIMI would appropriately set the condition at the time when he was called by YHWH.  There is nothing particularly "perfective" about it.
>
>george
>gfsomsel 
>
>
>… search for truth, hear truth, 
>learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
>defend the truth till death.
>
>
>- Jan Hus
>_________ 
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>To: Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com>
>Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 8:03:35 AM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
>
>On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:49 AM, Richard Lindeman wrote:
>> It may be that the question of whether HMHN is perfective here ultimately 
>> comes down to the question of how emphatic the author is being in his 
>> statement.  Unfortunately Greek doesn't have an exclamation punctuation mark 
>> to help us.  But, in rereading the verse in context it seems to me that the 
>> author is indeed trying to be emphatic... in which case both instances of 
>> HMHN might then be taken as perfective.
>
>I'm sorry I've let this go on to this point. I honestly do not believe that
>any form of the verb EIMI can be perfective and that it's useless to speculate
>upon it. Certainly an imperfect form HMHN cannot be perfective. When
>a Greek speaker or writer wants to express a perfective sense of "be"
>it is a form of GINOMAI that is used, whether in the aorist or in the
>perfect tense. EIMI has no aorist and no perfect-tense forms.
>
>Carl W. Conrad
>Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 2:55 PM
>> To: "Richard Lindeman" <oblchurch at msn.com>
>> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek]  A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
>> 
>>> On Mar 10, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Richard Lindeman wrote:
>>>> Let's take out the perfective sense for a moment...
>>>> "I was never a prophet or the son of a prophet, but I was always a 
>>>> herdsman and a dresser of pigs."
>>>> 
>>>> I don't think it says one way or the other whether he is now a prophet. 
>>>> It just seems to be a comment on a past state of affairs.
>>> 
>>> And what sort of "perfective" sense are we supposing that the verb EIMI 
>>> should ever have?
>>> 
>>> CWC
>>> 
>>>> From: Mark Lightman
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:23 PM
>>>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org ; Richard Lindeman
>>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>    Richard wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>    <How about an iterative imperfect?
>>>> 
>>>>    "I have never been a prophet or the son of a prophet,
>>>>      but I have always been
>>>>    a herdsman and a dresser of figs.">
>>>> 
>>>>    Hi, Richard,
>>>> 
>>>>    Yes, that sounds good to me.  My only question would
>>>>    be, do you think the text means to indicate one way or
>>>>    the other whether he is NOW a prophet?
>>>> 
>>>>    Mark L
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>    FWSFOROS MARKOS
>>>> 
>>>>    --- On Wed, 3/10/10, Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>      From: Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com>
>>>>      Subject: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
>>>>      To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>      Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 12:14 PM
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>      How about an iterative imperfect?
>>>> 
>>>>      "I have never been a prophet or the son of a prophet, but I have 
>>>> always been
>>>>      a herdsman and a dresser of figs."
>>>> 
>>>>      Rich Lindeman
>>>> 
>>>>> OUK HMHN PROFHTHS EGW OUDE hUIOS PROFHTOU,
>>>>> ALL? H AIPOLOS HMHN KAI KNIZWN SUKAMINA
>>>>> ?
>>>>> "I didn't used to be a prophet, nor the son of a prophet.
>>>>> Rather I was wont to be a herdsman and dresser of figs."
>
>Carl W. Conrad
>Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>
>
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