[B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
Richard Lindeman
oblchurch at msn.com
Fri Mar 12 09:05:39 EST 2010
Thanks George. Your insights are helpful.
However, in discussions like this, parsing the dialogue on B-Greek has often
been more challenging for me than parsing the actual Koine Greek. But I
really do try my best.
So then, since as it appears that you are pretty confident in your
assertions, let me see if I understand you absolutely correctly. There is a
predicate apposition being expressed in the Hebrew that would be
inappropriate for the Koine. Therefore, in an attempt to be faithful to the
Hebrew phrasing, the LXX translator has inserted a temporal clause with
HMHN. And the end result is a wooden Greek expression that has left our
imaginations going a bit wild. Is that right?
And if I have that part right, then just one more question: Given his
options, do you think that the LXX translator's choice was a good one? (My
Hebrew is so rusty that the gate absolutely won't open on my end)
Rich Lindeman
--------------------------------------------------
From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:50 PM
To: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>; "Richard Lindeman"
<oblchurch at msn.com>
Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
> I haven't been following this due to time constraints, but it seems from
> what I have read this AM that it has to do with Amos 7.14 in the LXX. I
> am happy to see that Carl has introduced some sanity into the discussion.
> There is no perfect form of EIMI in either the LXX or the NT -- nor is
> there one to be found in Homer. In the MT this is a verbless clause in
> which the subject is equated (or NOT EQUATED as in this passage) with the
> predicate. Thus, the LXX does not precisely represent the Hebrew. It is
> temporally set in the situation where "YHWH to me from following the
> flock." The impf of EIMI would appropriately set the condition at the
> time when he was called by YHWH. There is nothing particularly
> "perfective" about it.
>
> george
> gfsomsel
>
>
> … search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> To: Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 8:03:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
>
> On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:49 AM, Richard Lindeman wrote:
>> It may be that the question of whether HMHN is perfective here ultimately
>> comes down to the question of how emphatic the author is being in his
>> statement. Unfortunately Greek doesn't have an exclamation punctuation
>> mark
>> to help us. But, in rereading the verse in context it seems to me that
>> the
>> author is indeed trying to be emphatic... in which case both instances of
>> HMHN might then be taken as perfective.
>
> I'm sorry I've let this go on to this point. I honestly do not believe
> that
> any form of the verb EIMI can be perfective and that it's useless to
> speculate
> upon it. Certainly an imperfect form HMHN cannot be perfective. When
> a Greek speaker or writer wants to express a perfective sense of "be"
> it is a form of GINOMAI that is used, whether in the aorist or in the
> perfect tense. EIMI has no aorist and no perfect-tense forms.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 2:55 PM
>> To: "Richard Lindeman" <oblchurch at msn.com>
>> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
>>
>>> On Mar 10, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Richard Lindeman wrote:
>>>> Let's take out the perfective sense for a moment...
>>>> "I was never a prophet or the son of a prophet, but I was always a
>>>> herdsman and a dresser of pigs."
>>>>
>>>> I don't think it says one way or the other whether he is now a prophet.
>>>> It just seems to be a comment on a past state of affairs.
>>>
>>> And what sort of "perfective" sense are we supposing that the verb EIMI
>>> should ever have?
>>>
>>> CWC
>>>
>>>> From: Mark Lightman
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:23 PM
>>>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org ; Richard Lindeman
>>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Richard wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <How about an iterative imperfect?
>>>>
>>>> "I have never been a prophet or the son of a prophet,
>>>> but I have always been
>>>> a herdsman and a dresser of figs.">
>>>>
>>>> Hi, Richard,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that sounds good to me. My only question would
>>>> be, do you think the text means to indicate one way or
>>>> the other whether he is NOW a prophet?
>>>>
>>>> Mark L
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> FWSFOROS MARKOS
>>>>
>>>> --- On Wed, 3/10/10, Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com>
>>>> Subject: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
>>>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 12:14 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How about an iterative imperfect?
>>>>
>>>> "I have never been a prophet or the son of a prophet, but I have
>>>> always been
>>>> a herdsman and a dresser of figs."
>>>>
>>>> Rich Lindeman
>>>>
>>>>> OUK HMHN PROFHTHS EGW OUDE hUIOS PROFHTOU,
>>>>> ALL? H AIPOLOS HMHN KAI KNIZWN SUKAMINA
>>>>> ?
>>>>> "I didn't used to be a prophet, nor the son of a prophet.
>>>>> Rather I was wont to be a herdsman and dresser of figs."
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>
>
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