[B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Fri Mar 12 15:58:44 EST 2010
There is no "temporal clause" in Amos 7:14. Usually "temporal clause" refers to an adverbial clause. Rather, the Greek translators supplied past-tense verbs where the Hebrew clause was verbless. This is entirely legitimate. Classical Hebrew did not often use the present tense of the verb "to be," so, to say "I am not a prophet or the son of a prophet" OR "I used to be neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet" one would say "Not a prophet I, not a son of a prophet I ..."
Yancy
Yancy Smith, PhD
yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Y.W.Smith at tcu.edu
yancy at wbtc.com
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On Mar 12, 2010, at 8:05 AM, Richard Lindeman wrote:
> Thanks George. Your insights are helpful.
> However, in discussions like this, parsing the dialogue on B-Greek has often
> been more challenging for me than parsing the actual Koine Greek. But I
> really do try my best.
>
> So then, since as it appears that you are pretty confident in your
> assertions, let me see if I understand you absolutely correctly. There is a
> predicate apposition being expressed in the Hebrew that would be
> inappropriate for the Koine. Therefore, in an attempt to be faithful to the
> Hebrew phrasing, the LXX translator has inserted a temporal clause with
> HMHN. And the end result is a wooden Greek expression that has left our
> imaginations going a bit wild. Is that right?
>
> And if I have that part right, then just one more question: Given his
> options, do you think that the LXX translator's choice was a good one? (My
> Hebrew is so rusty that the gate absolutely won't open on my end)
>
> Rich Lindeman
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:50 PM
> To: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>; "Richard Lindeman"
> <oblchurch at msn.com>
> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
>
>> I haven't been following this due to time constraints, but it seems from
>> what I have read this AM that it has to do with Amos 7.14 in the LXX. I
>> am happy to see that Carl has introduced some sanity into the discussion.
>> There is no perfect form of EIMI in either the LXX or the NT -- nor is
>> there one to be found in Homer. In the MT this is a verbless clause in
>> which the subject is equated (or NOT EQUATED as in this passage) with the
>> predicate. Thus, the LXX does not precisely represent the Hebrew. It is
>> temporally set in the situation where "YHWH to me from following the
>> flock." The impf of EIMI would appropriately set the condition at the
>> time when he was called by YHWH. There is nothing particularly
>> "perfective" about it.
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>>
>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>> To: Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com>
>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Thu, March 11, 2010 8:03:35 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
>>
>> On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:49 AM, Richard Lindeman wrote:
>>> It may be that the question of whether HMHN is perfective here ultimately
>>> comes down to the question of how emphatic the author is being in his
>>> statement. Unfortunately Greek doesn't have an exclamation punctuation
>>> mark
>>> to help us. But, in rereading the verse in context it seems to me that
>>> the
>>> author is indeed trying to be emphatic... in which case both instances of
>>> HMHN might then be taken as perfective.
>>
>> I'm sorry I've let this go on to this point. I honestly do not believe
>> that
>> any form of the verb EIMI can be perfective and that it's useless to
>> speculate
>> upon it. Certainly an imperfect form HMHN cannot be perfective. When
>> a Greek speaker or writer wants to express a perfective sense of "be"
>> it is a form of GINOMAI that is used, whether in the aorist or in the
>> perfect tense. EIMI has no aorist and no perfect-tense forms.
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 2:55 PM
>>> To: "Richard Lindeman" <oblchurch at msn.com>
>>> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
>>>
>>>> On Mar 10, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Richard Lindeman wrote:
>>>>> Let's take out the perfective sense for a moment...
>>>>> "I was never a prophet or the son of a prophet, but I was always a
>>>>> herdsman and a dresser of pigs."
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think it says one way or the other whether he is now a prophet.
>>>>> It just seems to be a comment on a past state of affairs.
>>>>
>>>> And what sort of "perfective" sense are we supposing that the verb EIMI
>>>> should ever have?
>>>>
>>>> CWC
>>>>
>>>>> From: Mark Lightman
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:23 PM
>>>>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org ; Richard Lindeman
>>>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <How about an iterative imperfect?
>>>>>
>>>>> "I have never been a prophet or the son of a prophet,
>>>>> but I have always been
>>>>> a herdsman and a dresser of figs.">
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi, Richard,
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, that sounds good to me. My only question would
>>>>> be, do you think the text means to indicate one way or
>>>>> the other whether he is NOW a prophet?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark L
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> FWSFOROS MARKOS
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Wed, 3/10/10, Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Richard Lindeman <oblchurch at msn.com>
>>>>> Subject: [B-Greek] A Perfect Imperfect (Was Hebrews 1:6 and 2:5
>>>>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>> Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 12:14 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> How about an iterative imperfect?
>>>>>
>>>>> "I have never been a prophet or the son of a prophet, but I have
>>>>> always been
>>>>> a herdsman and a dresser of figs."
>>>>>
>>>>> Rich Lindeman
>>>>>
>>>>>> OUK HMHN PROFHTHS EGW OUDE hUIOS PROFHTOU,
>>>>>> ALL? H AIPOLOS HMHN KAI KNIZWN SUKAMINA
>>>>>> ?
>>>>>> "I didn't used to be a prophet, nor the son of a prophet.
>>>>>> Rather I was wont to be a herdsman and dresser of figs."
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
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