[B-Greek] GENOMENOS in Phil. 2:8
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Mar 12 14:51:45 EST 2010
On Mar 12, 2010, at 2:22 PM, Blue Meeksbay wrote:
> Hi Dr. Conrad:
>
> You wrote: All this frantic consultation of all the translations as a means to get at the sense of the Greek!
>
> For myself, I’ve adapted a portion of Matt. 18:16, “in the mouth of two or three witnesses [let] every word may be established.” :>)
>
> You wrote: It says nothing about "continuation" in a "state" of obedience.
>
> I may be missing something, (I probably am since you disagree), but cannot a stative sense be marked by certain parameters? For instance, EGENOMHN in Rev. 1:18, “I was dead.” Did not he *continue* in the single event of death until he arose? (And I do not want to get distracted by Rev. 1:18. It was just the first example that popped into my mind.)
>
> Therefore, could not the *single event* of the aorist be the incarnation? In other words, Paul was simply emphasizing the obedient mindset of the Lord in his incarnation?
>
> Please realize, I am not bound to this *interpretation,* I was just wondering what it is about this participle that causes translators to see it so differently.
No, I don't think that GENOMENOS hUPHKOOS refers to the incarnation. It refers to adoption of a stance of obedience.
This is really a matter of the difference in ASPECT between an imperfect and an aorist. HN hUPHKOOS might mean "he continued to be obedient" -- although such a notion seems more likely expressed by hUPHKOUEN. On the other hand, EGENETO hUPHKOOS suggests "became obedient." That's still different from hUPHKOUSEN, "he obeyed" -- which points to his obedience as a fact without reference to when or how long it was in effect. In old-fashioned "translation English" we could English GENOMENOS hUPHKOOS as "having become obedient." That's at least intelligible, even if we don't talk that way.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> ________________________________
> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 10:23:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] GENOMENOS in Phil. 2:8
>
> On Mar 12, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Blue Meeksbay wrote:
>> KAI SCHMATI hEUREQEIS hWS ANQRWPOS ETAPEINWSEN hEAUTON GENOMENOS hUPHKOOS MECRI QANATOU, QANATOU DE STAUROU. Phil 2:8 (or 2:7b-8)
>>
>> I am wondering if the aorist participle GENOMENOS in this verse can be understood in a stative sense – i.e. “being” – “…he humbled himself, *being* obedient until death, even death of the cross.” I take the particle MECRI as indicating this state continued all the way till death.
>>
>> Many English translators prefer to see GENOMENOS as “becoming,” which makes the obedience dependent on his act of humbling.
>>
>> “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.” RSV
>>
>> Others prefer to understand the act of humbling to simply be a manifestation of an obedient act… as is shown by the ESV.
>>
>> “And being found in human form, he humbled himself *by* becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” ESV
>>
>> I prefer to understand his act of humbling to be based on his obedient state or attitude. Let me give a paraphrase to explain what I mean.
>>
>> “And being found in human form, and because of his obedient mindset that was his until death, he humbled himself, even to the death of a cross.”
>>
>> The only English versions I could find that came close to this thought is the New Century Version –
>>
>> “And when he was living as a man, he humbled himself and was fully obedient to God, even when that caused his death—death on a cross.”
>>
>> As far as other languages, (if I can trust Google translate), the German “Hoffnung für Alle” comes close –
>>
>> “Er erniedrigte sich selbst und war Gott gehorsam bis zum Tod, ja, bis zum schändlichen Tod am Kreuz.”
>>
>> “He humbled Himself and God was obedient unto death, even to the shameful death on the cross.” (Google translate).
>>
>> And the “Het Boek” of the Netherlands seems to convey a similar thought.
>>
>> “Herkenbaar als mens, vernederde Hij Zich en gehoorzaamde tot het uiterste, zelfs tot in de dood aan het kruis.”
>>
>> “Recognizable as human, He humbled Himself and obeyed to the utmost, even unto death on the cross.” (Google translate).
>>
>> It seems, from looking at most translations, this understanding of GENOMENOS with this stative sense of “being” is a minority view, but can anyone see a reason why it should be disallowed?
>
> All this frantic consultation of all the translations as a means to get at the sense of the Greek! When each one is, obviously, an interpretation of what the Greek says/means. GENOMENOS is an aorist participle and points to assumption of the obedient stance as a single event. It says nothing about "continuation" in a "state" of obedience but rather points to "obedience" as characterizing the one who ETAPEINWSEN hEAUTON.
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