[B-Greek] Xenophon's Anabasis 1:4:6 ref: John 1:1c

Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Wed Mar 17 15:00:13 EDT 2010


On Mar 17, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Mark Lightman wrote:
> Carl wrote:
>  
> <But many will claim that John 1:1c is different because
>  of the kind of noun that QEOS is: qualitative, a count word.>
>  
> Okay, I'll bite.  What is a "count word?"  But, please,
> be gentle.  I am not the son of a linguist.

Gen. 2:19 καὶ ἔπλασεν ὁ θεὸς ἔτι ἐκ τῆς γῆς πάντα τὰ θηρία 
τοῦ ἀγροῦ καὶ πάντα τὰ πετεινὰ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καὶ ἤγαγεν 
αὐτὰ πρὸς τὸν Αδαμ ἰδεῖν, τί καλέσει αὐτά, καὶ πᾶν, ὃ ἐὰν 
ἐκάλεσεν αὐτὸ Αδαμ ψυχὴν ζῶσαν, τοῦτο ὄνομα αὐτοῦ.
[Gen. 2:19 KAI EPLASEN hO QEOS ETI EK THS GHS PANTA TA QHRIA 
TOU AGROU KAI PANTA TA PETEINA TOU OURANOU KAI HGAGEN 
AUTA PROS TON ADAM IDEIN, TI KALESEI AUTA, KAI PAN, hO EAN 
EKALESEN AUTO ADAM YUCHN ZWSAN, TOUTO ONOMA AUTOU.]

As a child of Adam you are guilty by association, heredity, culture, etc., etc.

It's one of the terms I've seen in one or more of the interminable John 1:1c
threads on B-Greek. There was an interrupted but renewed thread in October 
of 2006 with subject-header, "Definiteness." One key item in it was

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2006-October/040589.html

But you might do better to look first at the Wikipedia article on "count nouns"
as distinguished from "mass nouns":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_noun

Alternatively, you may well decide to shrug your shoulders and say, "Who
needs this?"

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

> --- On Wed, 3/17/10, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Xenophon's Anabasis 1:4:6 ref: John 1:1c
> To: "Womble Singer" <womblesong at googlemail.com>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Wednesday, March 17, 2010, 8:29 AM
> 
> 
> On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Womble Singer wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I am not looking for a theological debate here but purely some
>> information on the similarity or not in the grammar between Xenophon's
>> Anabasis 1:4:6 and John 1:1c
>> 
>> Here is the text from Xenophon in context:
>> 
>> Anabasis 1:4:6,7
>> Εντενθεν εξελαυνει δια Συριαϛ σταθμον ενα παρασαγγας πεντε εις
>> Μυριανδρον, πολιν οικουμενην υπο Φοινικων επι τη θαλαττη εμποριον δ ην
>> το χωριον, και ωρμουν αυτοθι ολκαδες πολλαι.
> 
> Transliteration (see FAQ http://ibiblio.org/bgreek/bgtransliteration.html):
> ENTENQEN EXELAUNEI DIA SURIAS STAQMON ENA PARASAGGAS PENTE EIS
> MURIANDRON, POLIN OIKOUMENHN UPO FOINIKWN EPI TH QALATTH EMPORION D HN
> TO CWRION, KAI WRMOUN AUTOQI OLKADES POLLAI.
> 
>> And here is the relevant section as compared with John 1:1c
>> 
>> == Xenophon's Anabasis 1:4:6 ==
>> 
>> N-GSN? V-IAI-3S T-ASN N-ASN
>> 
>> εμποριον δ ην το χωριον
>> 
> EMPORION D HN TO CWRION
>> 
>> market was the place
>> 
>> == John 1:1c ==
>> 
>> N-NSM V-IAI-3S T-NSM N-NSM
>> 
>> θεος ην ο λογος
> QEOS HN hO LOGOS
>> 
>> god was the word
>> 
>> ==
>> 
>> Is this truly a fair comparison? I notice that the logos is nominative
>> whereas the 'place' is accusative.
>> 
>> Like I said I just really want to know if the grammar's are comparable
>> rather than going into the knotty issue of doctrine.
> 
> The grammars are certainly comparable in a formal sense:
> Xenophon: The place was a market.
> John 1:1c: The word was a god.
> 
> But many will claim that John 1:1c is different because of the kind of noun that QEOS is: qualitative, a count word. You can check our archives for the many, many times that we have discussed how QEOS is related to hO LOGOS in John 1:1c.







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