[B-Greek] PROS in Heb 1:7-8 ( was Semantic Range of Prepositions
Elizabeth Kline
kline_dekooning at earthlink.net
Mon Mar 22 22:57:08 EDT 2010
On Mar 22, 2010, at 1:30 PM, Yancy Smith wrote:
> Elizabeth EGRAYE:
> Prepositions are ambiguous. Take a look at PROS in:
>
> Heb. 1:7 καὶ πρὸς μὲν τοὺς ἀγγέλους λέγει· ὁ ποιῶν τοὺς ἀγγέλους αὐτοῦ πνεύματα καὶ τοὺς λειτουργοὺς αὐτοῦ πυρὸς φλόγα, 8 πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν· ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος, καὶ ἡ ῥάβδος τῆς εὐθύτητος ῥάβδος τῆς βασιλείας σου.
>
> Heb. 1:7 KAI PROS MEN TOUS AGGELOUS LEGEI· hO POIWN TOUS AGGELOUS AUTOU PNEUMATA KAI TOUS LEITOURGOUS AUTOU PUROS FLOGA, 8 PROS DE TON hUION· hO QRONOS SOU hO QEOS EIS TON AIWNA TOU AIWNOS, KAI hH hRABDOS THS EUQUTHTOS hRABDOS THS BASILEIAS SOU.
>
> Does the first PROS mark the addressees of LEGEI "to" or the subjectmatter of LEGEI "concerning"?
>
> [Yancy Smith]
> A great example, and translations usually waffle from v. 7 to v. 8. The UBS Translator's Handbook on Hebrews says, "The word translated About [PROS] in verses 7 and 8 more commonly means “To.” About fits the context better in verse 7, where God is not speaking to the angels, but “To” is more suitable here in verse 8, because God is speaking to the Son."
> But here, the ambiguity of the preposition arises from the semantics of the verb LEGEI, as Elizabeth suggests. The same verb is used (with the an ambiguous subject, God-Scripture, as the implied speaker? Or no direct "speaker" at all?) in v. 5, 6, 7, 13. LEGEI has a range of meanings that also set different conceptual or assumptive frames. For example, when LEGEI means "means" or LEGEI PROS means "refers to" (as it might here) the semantics of the verb would determine the frame, I suppose.
Yancy,
Another question, perhaps related to how we read the first PROS, is how to read the quote from Psalm 104:4 (103:4 LXX). I found reading C.Koester (Hebrews AB), P.Ellingworth, B.F.Westcott, FF.Bruce, Moffat (ICC) directly contradictory statements about Hebrews form, the MT Ps 104:4 and the LXX 103:4. I assume all these authors can read Greek and Hebrew.
Not a single one of them bothered to raise the question how verse four would fit in a psalm which is very obviously with a view to some sort of a storm theophany. Given that background I think we should probably read the LXX citation they way it is translated by Albert Pietersma. It makes a lot more sense to talk about wind and fire being messengers, given the storm "frame".
On the author of Hebrews didn't probably give much attention to the original setting of the citations.
Elizabeth Kline
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