[B-Greek] PROS in Heb 1:7-8 ( was Semantic Range of Prepositions

Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Wed Mar 24 11:30:44 EDT 2010


A few comments below:

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Elizabeth Kline" <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
To: "greek B-Greek" <B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: 23. marts 2010 05:57
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] PROS in Heb 1:7-8 ( was Semantic Range of Prepositions


>
> On Mar 22, 2010, at 1:30 PM, Yancy Smith wrote:
>
>> Elizabeth EGRAYE:
>> Prepositions are ambiguous. Take a look at PROS in:
>>
>> Heb. 1:7 καὶ πρὸς μὲν τοὺς ἀγγέλους λέγει· ὁ ποιῶν τοὺς ἀγγέλους αὐτοῦ 
>> πνεύματα καὶ τοὺς λειτουργοὺς αὐτοῦ πυρὸς φλόγα,  8 πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν· ὁ 
>> θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος, καὶ ἡ ῥάβδος τῆς εὐθύτητος ῥάβδος 
>> τῆς βασιλείας σου.
>>
>> Heb. 1:7 KAI PROS MEN TOUS AGGELOUS LEGEI· hO POIWN TOUS AGGELOUS AUTOU 
>> PNEUMATA KAI TOUS LEITOURGOUS AUTOU PUROS FLOGA,  8 PROS DE TON hUION· hO 
>> QRONOS SOU hO QEOS EIS TON AIWNA TOU AIWNOS, KAI hH hRABDOS THS EUQUTHTOS 
>> hRABDOS THS BASILEIAS SOU.
>>
>> Does the first PROS mark the addressees of LEGEI "to" or the subjectmatter of 
>> LEGEI "concerning"?
>>
>> [Yancy Smith]
>> A great example, and translations usually waffle from v. 7 to v. 8. The UBS 
>> Translator's Handbook on Hebrews says, "The word translated About [PROS] in 
>> verses 7 and 8 more commonly means “To.” About fits the context better in 
>> verse 7, where God is not speaking to the angels, but “To” is more suitable 
>> here in verse 8, because God is speaking to the Son."
>> But here, the ambiguity of the preposition arises from the semantics of the 
>> verb LEGEI, as Elizabeth suggests. The same verb is used (with the an 
>> ambiguous subject, God-Scripture, as the implied speaker? Or no direct 
>> "speaker" at all?) in v. 5, 6, 7, 13. LEGEI has a range of meanings that also 
>> set different conceptual or assumptive frames. For example, when LEGEI means 
>> "means" or LEGEI PROS means "refers to" (as it might here) the semantics of 
>> the verb would determine the frame, I suppose.
>

Iver: There is a very similar construction in Rom 10:21:

πρὸς δὲ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ λέγει
PROS DE TON ISRAHL LEGEI (Scripture quote following)

The KJV says "to" for PROS which is obviously a mistake. Modern versions 
correctly have "about" or "concerning". The scripture is pointing to something 
about Israel, and PROS is directional, pointing to something or especially 
somebody.

Another example of PROS:
1 Cor 6:5 πρὸς ἐντροπὴν ὑμῖν λέγω
PROS ENTROPHN hUMIN LEGW

I suppose a similar idiom works in English. At least the NET has "I say this to 
your shame!" Paul is not literally speaking to their shame as if shame had ears 
to hear. Rather, his words would/should result in them feeling shameful. 
Literally: I speak to you towards shame.

For Heb 1:7, the KJV did not stick to "to", but said "of the angels", and to 
speak of somebody is the same as to speak about somebody, I presume. There is no 
need to waffle, since both the PROS in verse 7 and 8 ought to be translated as 
"about". Both of the UBS translations GNB and CEV say "about" contra the 
misleading advice of the UBS handbook.

EK:
> Another question, perhaps related to how we read the first PROS, is how to 
> read the quote from Psalm 104:4 (103:4 LXX). I found reading C.Koester 
> (Hebrews AB), P.Ellingworth, B.F.Westcott, FF.Bruce, Moffat (ICC) directly 
> contradictory statements about Hebrews form, the MT Ps 104:4 and the LXX 
> 103:4. I assume all these authors can read Greek and Hebrew.
>
> Not a single one of them bothered to raise the question how verse four would 
> fit in a psalm which is very obviously with a view to some sort of a storm 
> theophany. Given that background I think we should probably read the LXX 
> citation they way it is translated by Albert Pietersma. It makes a lot more 
> sense to talk about wind and fire being messengers, given the storm "frame".
>

The NETS of Psalm 103(4):4 reads: "He who makes spirits his messengers and 
flaming fire his servants." I have already said a lot about Heb 1:7 and this 
Psalm in earlier posts, so I won't repeat it here. Only to say that "spirits" 
here is better translated by "winds" because of the storm context, and the 
"make" is not clear in English because of its literalness. The meaning of both 
the Hebrew and Greek is clear in the less literal GNB: "You use the winds as 
your messengers and flashes of lightning as your servants." (The change from 
third person - his - to second person - your - was for stylistic reasons, since 
the Psalm is addressed to God.)

Iver Larsen 




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