[B-Greek] Another County heard from (was 1 Tim. 3:6)
Iver Larsen
iver_larsen at sil.org
Fri May 7 07:23:20 EDT 2010
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
To: "Mark Lightman" <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Mike Burke" <michaelgburk at yahoo.com>; <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: 7. maj 2010 12:16
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Another County heard from (was 1 Tim. 3:6)
> On May 6, 2010, at 9:29 PM, Mark Lightman wrote:
>> George asked
>>
>> <Why would a neophyte be more likely than a seasoned veteran
>> to fall
>> into judgement like that assigned to the Devil ? It seems
>> far more
>> likely that the neophyte would be more likely to be led astray.>
>>
>> Hi George,
>>
>> The idea may be that a neophyte might have the same sort of pride
>> that led to the Devil's fall. Amplified has a note to Isaiah 14:12ff. which
>> seems very apt to me.
>>
>> I just checked about 10 translations and all but one are either
>> ambiguous or take it as an objective genitive. Only Goodspeed
>> takes it as an subjective genitive ""..incur criticism from slanderous
>> people."
>>
>> So it's not as close as Hayes-Tilden after all. There are counties
>> out there yet to be heard from.
>
> One county not heard from hitherto in this thread is the NET note on 1 Tim
> 3:6:
>
> "Grk “the judgment of the devil,” which could also mean “the judgment that the
> devil incurred.”
> But see 1 Tim 1:20 for examples of the danger Paul seems to have in mind"
>
> 1 Tim 1:20 ὧν ἐστιν Ὑμέναιος καὶ Ἀλέξανδρος, οὓς παρέδωκα τῷ σατανᾷ, ἵνα
> παιδευθῶσιν μὴ βλασφημεῖν.
> [hWN ESTIN hUMENAIOS KAI ALEXANDROS, hOUS PAREDWKA TWi SATANAi, hINA
> PAIDEUQWSIN MH BLASFHMEIN.]
>
> Personally, I think that the answer to Mike Burke's original question ("Does
> the Greek text lend itself more to one thought or the other?") is NO -- and I
> wouldn't lay much store by vote-counting as a satisfactory way of getting at
> the truth of the matter. We need a Hoyle to provide us with a "scenario" -- or
> another Hoyle to tell us the rules of the game ;-)
>
> Carl W. Conrad
In my view that scenario is set partly by τυφωθεὶς TUFQEIS, having become puffed
up, conceited, deluded by a false sense of one's own grandeur and importance.
According to the Bible this is what happened to Satan and that is why he was and
will be judged.
The other scenario word is κρίμα KRIMA. Satan has no authority to judge anybody,
but will be judged for his pride.
Of course, the genitive only tells us that KRIMA and DIABOLOU are connected, not
what the connection is. The scenario of the Devil in the Bible suggests being
judged rather than judging.
The NET bible suggests that "he may become arrogant and fall into the punishment
that the devil will exact".
This is in my view a mistake, since KRIMA does not refer to punishment, but
judgment or condemnation and never in the Bible is Satan portrayed as a judge.
An accuser, yes, but not a judge.
And Paul probably does not have 1 Tim 1:20 in mind. The context is quite
different. In one, it is Paul who hands over somebody to be taught a lesson (and
maybe repent?), in the other it is matter of falling inadvertently into a sin
like the one the Devil fell into and therefore receive the same judgment. NIV
did well here as did GW and CEV. NLT suggests "cause him to fall", but that is
not a possible translation of KRIMA. That fits better with the following verse
where we do have a subjective or source genitive in PAGIS TOU DIABOLOU (cf. 2
Tim 2:26).
Iver Larsen
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