[B-Greek] Another County heard from (was 1 Tim. 3:6)
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri May 7 05:16:40 EDT 2010
On May 6, 2010, at 9:29 PM, Mark Lightman wrote:
> George asked
>
> <Why would a neophyte be more likely than a seasoned veteran
> to fall
> into judgement like that assigned to the Devil ? It seems
> far more
> likely that the neophyte would be more likely to be led astray.>
>
> Hi George,
>
> The idea may be that a neophyte might have the same sort of pride
> that led to the Devil's fall. Amplified has a note to Isaiah 14:12ff. which
> seems very apt to me.
>
> I just checked about 10 translations and all but one are either
> ambiguous or take it as an objective genitive. Only Goodspeed
> takes it as an subjective genitive ""..incur criticism from slanderous
> people."
>
> So it's not as close as Hayes-Tilden after all. There are counties
> out there yet to be heard from.
One county not heard from hitherto in this thread is the NET note on 1 Tim 3:6:
"Grk “the judgment of the devil,” which could also mean “the judgment that the devil incurred.”
But see 1 Tim 1:20 for examples of the danger Paul seems to have in mind"
1 Tim 1:20 ὧν ἐστιν Ὑμέναιος καὶ Ἀλέξανδρος, οὓς παρέδωκα τῷ σατανᾷ, ἵνα παιδευθῶσιν μὴ βλασφημεῖν.
[hWN ESTIN hUMENAIOS KAI ALEXANDROS, hOUS PAREDWKA TWi SATANAi, hINA PAIDEUQWSIN MH BLASFHMEIN.]
Personally, I think that the answer to Mike Burke's original question ("Does the Greek text lend itself more to one thought or the other?") is NO -- and I wouldn't lay much store by vote-counting as a satisfactory way of getting at the truth of the matter. We need a Hoyle to provide us with a "scenario" -- or another Hoyle to tell us the rules of the game ;-)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> ________________________________
> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> To: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>; Mike Burke <michaelgburk at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Thu, May 6, 2010 11:19:10 AM
> Subject: Re: Another County heard from (was [B-Greek] 1 Tim. 3:6)
>
>
> One must not only read texts in light of the (possible) grammatical constructions found therein but also in light of what makes sense. Why would a neophyte be more likely than a seasoned veteran to fall into judgement like that assigned to the Devil ? It seems far more likely that the neophyte would be more likely to be led astray.
> george
> gfsomsel
> ________________________________
> From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; Mike Burke <michaelgburk at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Thu, May 6, 2010 10:11:08 AM
> Subject: Re:Another County heard from (was [B-Greek] 1 Tim. 3:6)
>
>
> George wrote
>
>
> <μὴ νεόφυτον, ἵνα μὴ τυφωθεὶς εἰς κρίμα ἐμπέσῃ τοῦ διαβόλου.
> MH NEOFUTON, hINA MH TUFWQEIS EIS EMPESHi TOU DIABOLOU
>
> TUFWQEIS (TUFOW) indicates becoming foolish or conceited. If you look at Job and Rev 12 you will note that "the Satan" is an accuser as in a prosecuting attorney in a lawsuit. It is therefore referring to being misled by the one who attempts to accuse man before God. The genitive is therefore a subjective genitive>
>
> Hi, George,
>
> On the other hand, Satan is also the archetypal example of someone who is judged, condemned and destroyed.
> "The judgment that the devil will have to deal with with." The genitive is therefore an objective genitive.
>
> Mike wrote
>
> <Does the Greek text lend itself more to one thought or the other?>
>
> Hi, Mike,
>
> Yes, in the same way that the election of 1876 lent itself to one party
> or the other other. "Another county heard from..."
>
> Mark L
> FWSOROS MARKOS
> Φωσφορος
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mike Burke <michaelgburk at yahoo.com>
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Thu, May 6, 2010 8:15:20 AM
> Subject: [B-Greek] 1 Tim. 3:6
>
> When Paul says that an overseer "mustn't be a new convert, lest he become conceited and fall to the judgment of the devil," is the thought that he might fall under the same judgment as the devil (as in NIV), or that he might be accused by the devil?
>
> Is it possible to say one way or the other?
>
> Does the Greek text lend itself more to one thought or the other?
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