[B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5

Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Sat Mar 19 11:31:24 EDT 2011


On Mar 19, 2011, at 11:21 AM, George F Somsel wrote:

> Let me attempt to be a bit more plain regarding the matter of ὅς hOS in this 
> passage and the matter of causality.  I would say that there is a certain 
> causality expressed, but it DOES NOT LIE IN THE RELATIVE.  The causality lies 
> rather in the manner in which the author has structured the argument.  He could 
> have said
> 
>  Παρακαλῶ οὖν πρῶτον πάντων ποιεῖσθαι δεήσεις ... ὑπὲρ πάντων ἀνθρώπων. 
> [intervening material] 
>  PARAKALW OUN PRWTON PANTWN POIEISQAI DEHSEIS ... hUPER PANTWN ANQRWPWN 
> [intervening material]
> 
> Then he might have come to a full stop to begin again
> 
> θεὸς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν. 
> QEOS PANTAS ANQRWPOUS QELEI SWQHNAI KAI EIS EPIGNWSIN ALHQEIAS ELQEIN.
> 
> Would there have been any less causality in such ?  I don't think so.  It is the 
> sequence of the statements which holds the causality and not the one word ὅς 
> hOS.  I would say that the causality as the reason for the offering of prayers 
> is not so much stated as implied.

I would agree with George that the causality isn't implicit in the text, even if
it may have been in the mind of the writer. I've said this before -- and if I keep
repeating myself, it may turn out to be ad nauseam --: ancient writers, no less
than modern writers, tend to express themselves more tersely than they are
actually thinking; a writer that wanted to be unambiguous could and still can
take the trouble to express him/herself so as not to be misunderstood, but
taking such pains is generally too much of a  pain to take, and so we commonly
don't think twice about making ourselves as clear as perhaps we ought.

Carl


> ________________________________
> From: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
> To: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>; BG <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Sat, March 19, 2011 7:19:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
> 
> Plus another question:)
> 
> One of the commentators says that hOS has a causal meaning: "because He wants 
> all people to be saved". I cannot find such meaning of this pronoun.
> 
> Beata Urbanek
> 
>> Thanks to all who responded.
>> 
>> The text again:
>> 4. ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν.
>> 4. hOS PANTAS ANQWRWPOUS QELEI SWQHNAI KAI EIS EPIGNQSIN ALHQEIAS ELQEIN
>> 
>> I have another question.
>> Is the position of πάντας ἀνθρώπους at the beginning of the v. 4 emphatic? 
>> Should the "normal" word order be:
>> ὃς θέλει σωθῆναι πάντας ἀνθρώπους.
>> hOS QELEI SWQHNAI PANTAS ANQWRWPOUS
>> 
>> Beata Urbanek
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
>> To: "Shirley Rollinson" <rollinsondr at yahoo.com>; "BG" 
>> <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 8:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>> 
>> 
>>> After having looked at all the BOULOMAIs in the NT, I get the impression that 
>>> it
>>> usually refers to the following scenario: I have thought about the situation, 
>> I
>>> have come to a decision or made a plan, and therefore: this is what I want 
> you
>>> to do or this is what I want should happen.
>>> If more than one person is involved, the decision would be a result of that
>>> consultation, but in most cases the person consults within him- or herself.
>>> 
>>> In 2 Pet 3:9 we read: μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν
>>> χωρῆσαι
>>> MH BOULOMENOS TINAS APOLESQAI ALLA PANTAS EIS METANOIAN CWRHSAI
>>> 
>>> (God) is not planning (does not want) for anyone to be destroyed but for all 
>> to
>>> make room for repentance.
>>> 
>>> In 1 Tim 2:4 God would wish (QELEI) for all people to be saved and come to 
>>> fully
>>> know the truth.
>>> 
>>> But he also knows that this will not happen, even though he has put 
> everything
>>> in place for it to happen as v. 5 explains: He has sent Jesus Christ as the
>>> mediator, but there is only one God. If people will not believe and 
>> acknowledge
>>> this truth, they will not be saved.
>>> 
>>> Although there is considerable overlap between the words, I do believe that 
>>> some
>>> distinction is present. It is akin to, but not quite the same as, the 
>>> difference
>>> between English "want" and "wish".
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shirley Rollinson" 
> <rollinsondr at yahoo.com>
>>> To: <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
>>> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Sent: 9. marts 2011 02:14
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dear Beata,
>>> Could it be that THELW qelw relates to THELHMA qelhma - what an individual
>>> wishes or wants
>>> and that BOULOMAI boulomai relates to BOULH boulh - what a council decides
>>> together?
>>> 
>>> thank you
>>> Shirley Rollinson
>>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>> 9. Re: 1 Timothy 2:4-5 (Beata Urbanek)
>>> 
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>> 
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)






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