[B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Sat Mar 19 11:31:24 EDT 2011
On Mar 19, 2011, at 11:21 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
> Let me attempt to be a bit more plain regarding the matter of ὅς hOS in this
> passage and the matter of causality. I would say that there is a certain
> causality expressed, but it DOES NOT LIE IN THE RELATIVE. The causality lies
> rather in the manner in which the author has structured the argument. He could
> have said
>
> Παρακαλῶ οὖν πρῶτον πάντων ποιεῖσθαι δεήσεις ... ὑπὲρ πάντων ἀνθρώπων.
> [intervening material]
> PARAKALW OUN PRWTON PANTWN POIEISQAI DEHSEIS ... hUPER PANTWN ANQRWPWN
> [intervening material]
>
> Then he might have come to a full stop to begin again
>
> θεὸς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν.
> QEOS PANTAS ANQRWPOUS QELEI SWQHNAI KAI EIS EPIGNWSIN ALHQEIAS ELQEIN.
>
> Would there have been any less causality in such ? I don't think so. It is the
> sequence of the statements which holds the causality and not the one word ὅς
> hOS. I would say that the causality as the reason for the offering of prayers
> is not so much stated as implied.
I would agree with George that the causality isn't implicit in the text, even if
it may have been in the mind of the writer. I've said this before -- and if I keep
repeating myself, it may turn out to be ad nauseam --: ancient writers, no less
than modern writers, tend to express themselves more tersely than they are
actually thinking; a writer that wanted to be unambiguous could and still can
take the trouble to express him/herself so as not to be misunderstood, but
taking such pains is generally too much of a pain to take, and so we commonly
don't think twice about making ourselves as clear as perhaps we ought.
Carl
> ________________________________
> From: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
> To: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>; BG <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Sat, March 19, 2011 7:19:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>
> Plus another question:)
>
> One of the commentators says that hOS has a causal meaning: "because He wants
> all people to be saved". I cannot find such meaning of this pronoun.
>
> Beata Urbanek
>
>> Thanks to all who responded.
>>
>> The text again:
>> 4. ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν.
>> 4. hOS PANTAS ANQWRWPOUS QELEI SWQHNAI KAI EIS EPIGNQSIN ALHQEIAS ELQEIN
>>
>> I have another question.
>> Is the position of πάντας ἀνθρώπους at the beginning of the v. 4 emphatic?
>> Should the "normal" word order be:
>> ὃς θέλει σωθῆναι πάντας ἀνθρώπους.
>> hOS QELEI SWQHNAI PANTAS ANQWRWPOUS
>>
>> Beata Urbanek
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
>> To: "Shirley Rollinson" <rollinsondr at yahoo.com>; "BG"
>> <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 8:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>>
>>
>>> After having looked at all the BOULOMAIs in the NT, I get the impression that
>>> it
>>> usually refers to the following scenario: I have thought about the situation,
>> I
>>> have come to a decision or made a plan, and therefore: this is what I want
> you
>>> to do or this is what I want should happen.
>>> If more than one person is involved, the decision would be a result of that
>>> consultation, but in most cases the person consults within him- or herself.
>>>
>>> In 2 Pet 3:9 we read: μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν
>>> χωρῆσαι
>>> MH BOULOMENOS TINAS APOLESQAI ALLA PANTAS EIS METANOIAN CWRHSAI
>>>
>>> (God) is not planning (does not want) for anyone to be destroyed but for all
>> to
>>> make room for repentance.
>>>
>>> In 1 Tim 2:4 God would wish (QELEI) for all people to be saved and come to
>>> fully
>>> know the truth.
>>>
>>> But he also knows that this will not happen, even though he has put
> everything
>>> in place for it to happen as v. 5 explains: He has sent Jesus Christ as the
>>> mediator, but there is only one God. If people will not believe and
>> acknowledge
>>> this truth, they will not be saved.
>>>
>>> Although there is considerable overlap between the words, I do believe that
>>> some
>>> distinction is present. It is akin to, but not quite the same as, the
>>> difference
>>> between English "want" and "wish".
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shirley Rollinson"
> <rollinsondr at yahoo.com>
>>> To: <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
>>> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Sent: 9. marts 2011 02:14
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Beata,
>>> Could it be that THELW qelw relates to THELHMA qelhma - what an individual
>>> wishes or wants
>>> and that BOULOMAI boulomai relates to BOULH boulh - what a council decides
>>> together?
>>>
>>> thank you
>>> Shirley Rollinson
>>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>> 9. Re: 1 Timothy 2:4-5 (Beata Urbanek)
>>>
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>>
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>
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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