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Ramanuja List Archive: Message 00121 Jan 2006

 
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Dear Sri Mohan swamin, Sri Kidambi Soundararajan Swamin and others,

     Please be assured that I am not interested in eliciting an 
apology from anyone on behalf of ISKCON, Sri Sampradaayam or anyone 
else.  I am the least qualified person to speak for any of these 
groups.  All that I wrote was with a view to encouraging tolerance 
between sampradaayams, and reiterating the need for us to be fully 
informed about these differences, before we might pass judgement on 
another group.  Sri Kidambi Soundararajan swamin, I am equally 
guilty of value judgements based on my own western upbringing and 
ask you to forgive me for the same.  In the words of Periyaazhvaar 
(but literally applied), I am only a "siRiya NYaanaththan"!

     Sri Mohan swamin, I think I may have had a case of crossed 
wires when answering your point.  I am grateful for your timely 
reminder that it is more important to inculcate service of 
God/others within oneself than emphasise the role of varna, when it 
comes to Vaishnavam.  And of course the misconception that Sri 
Vaishnavism is the preserve of brahmins is a damaging one which, I 
agree, no one should go away thinking.  Since the initial question 
was to do with the significance of gaayatri in Vaishnava thought, 
with Sri Pritesh swamin also providing us with the Gaudiya view, I 
thought I would relate what I had observed of the differences 
between in approach between these two traditions in giving gaayatri 
initiation (focussing therefore by implication on brahmins in both 
sampradaayams, I am sorry if this came across as implying that they 
are more important than anyone else, which of course is not true).  
I completely agree that whether one has Vedic initiation or not, 
from a Vaishnava point of view this is completely secondary to 
inculcating dasatvam/sheshatvam within oneself.

     As you yourself say, chanting of gaayatri or any other Vedic 
practice then becomes yet another process by which we serve Him.  In 
both sampradaayams, those who consider themselves brahmin no doubt 
do so with this in mind.

     My only last point on this would only be that we also be 
careful what we say is the Sri Vaishnava aachaaryas' position on 
eligibility for Vedic initiation.  We are all no doubt aware that 
the *majority* view of acharyas is that this is birth-based; however 
Sri Pritesh Swamin gave the important example of a non-Indian 
gentlemen who has presumably been given upanayanam by a genuine Sri 
Vaishnava acharya and now heads the Australian wing of a Sri 
Vaishnava organisation.  I believe there at least a couple more such 
examples.  So even on this issue I would suggest caution when we are 
asked 'what is the Sri Vaishnava view on who should chant gaayatri' -
 it would seem that, from the example set by some of our revered 
acharyas, it is not quite as black and white as we may have 
previously thought.

     If members would like to move onto a different topic, I found 
another question by Sri Pritesh very interesting, that of pre-
samaashrayanam devotees performing simple pooja/archana.  Is there 
any accepted view on this?  My grandfather taught me a simple pooja 
procedure based on some of the mantras and paasurams from the 
Tiruvaaraadhanam which I use (I am also yet to undergo 
samaashrayanam), but I would be very interested to hear any other 
members' views or experiences.

sarvAparAdhAn kShamasva
with praNAmams
namO nArAyaNAya

Ranjan



--- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, vimalkumar ranganathan 
<panardasan@xxxx> wrote:
>
> SrI:
>   SrimatE rAmAnujAya nama:
>    
>   Dear Sri Ranjan Swamin and others,
>                                      I humbly and gladly stand 
corrected. Again, I have the highest reverence for ISKCON for its 
high standards and vigor, and even my family has thick connections 
with the movement. I have always had been a bit uncomfortable with 
what had been discussed - perhaps because of the value systems I 
knew, and ofcourse, misunderstandings from my part. I am in total 
agreement that in the bigger picture, we are all Vaishnavas who 
relish in serving the Lord and his devotees. I also seek the pardon 
of any devotees attached to ISKCON if they are offended with what I 
wrote. 
>    
>   adiyEN dAsan,
>   Kidambi Soundararajan.
>    
>   AzhwAr emperumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE Saranam.
> 
> Mohan Sagar <madhuriandmohan@xxxx> wrote:
>   Sri Ranjan,
> 
> My sincere apologies for conveying the wrong message.  Please be 
rest 
> assured that I have utmost respect for ISKCON and have served as 
an 
> active member of our local temple's advisory board for several 
years.  I 
> also consider several devotees as close, personal friends.
> 
> I hope with this in mind, you can better understand the intent of 
my 
> concerns.   What I have been observing in the subsequent postings 
is the 
> misrepresentation that Sri sampradayam is mainly comprised of 
Brahmin 
> (Iyengars) and that the Gayatri mantra somehow plays some 
significant 
> role in becoming a Sri Vaishnava.   The varna system - whether we 
> believe is birth-based or not - is a state of the body.  One's 
being a 
> brahmana by birth or choice obligates that person to certain rules 
and 
> codes of conduct that exclude him from the society at large.  The 
> practice of Vaidika rituals and proper observation of sastra is 
also 
> important.  Whether or not the Iyengars of today follow this is 
another 
> story, but we all must agree that this what Vedas say - at least 
from 
> our understanding of it.
> 
> But, from the Sri Vaishnava perspective, which I would agree only 
> accepts the birth-based varna concept, caste is really a condition 
of 
> the body.  Being a Vaishnava, as our Acharyas say, is a condition 
of the 
> soul.  It involves the realization of "dasatvam" in ISKCON or 
> "seshatvam" in the Sri sampradayam, the feeling that one lives to 
serve 
> the Lord for His Pleasure.  Such a psychological/spiritual 
position is 
> expressed quite differently, through chanting the Holy Name, 
serving 
> fellow devotees, and so on.  Such activities have nothing to do 
with 
> varna or gender.  Even the role of Vaidika rituals change for 
those who 
> regard themselves to be Brahmin because they are done in His 
Service 
> without expectation of personal reward.  .  Therefore, I am of the 
> opinion that if one follows a Vaishnava school, the role of this 
> dastavam/seshatvam should be emphasized, keeping the Vaidika 
rituals in 
> proper context as being the svadharma of those who wish to engage 
in 
> rituals for the Lord's Service.  It is in keeping this mood of 
servitude 
> that I see ISKCON serving as a model to other Vaishnava schools of 
thought.
> 
> I hope this helps to clarify my position.
> 
> adiyen
> Mohan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >     Sriman Mohan, as to why ISKCON has adopted use of the 
gaayatri 
> >mantra, I am sure anyone who asks them will know that they see 
> >themselves as a fully Vaidika sampradaayam.  Anyone who has 
closely 
> >observed an ISKCON worship service will notice that their 
poojaris 
> >(often non-Indians, who have been given yagnyopaveetam) do recite 
> >vedic mantras during worship including Purusha suukta, Vishnu 
suukta 
> >and others, and if you ask them about their practice you will 
find 
> >that they do in fact perform trikaala sandhyaavandanam.  This 
isn't 
> >just my guess, I happen to have discussed these issues in detail 
a 
> >couple of times with a prominent Gaudiya Vaishnava academic in 
the 
> >UK who also performs priestly duties for many Indian Hindu 
> >families.  
> >
> >   Any student of Gaudiya sampradaayam will also know that they 
> >don't subscribe to the 'birth' based view of varna prevalent in 
Sri 
> >sampradaayam - hence their giving of yagnyopaveetam to non-birth 
> >brahmins.  Your observation that the chanting of Vedas is 
restricted 
> >by birth may be the understanding of most Sri Vaishnava acharyas, 
> >but I think we should respect the strongly held conviction of the 
> >Gaudiyas on this.  They too will be able to quote vedic pramaaNam 
> >stating that 'individuals displaying the required characterists 
are 
> >eligible for gaayatri'.  Any further discussion of this would 
> >probably spiral into the caste-by-birth-or-qualities debate which 
> >has happened too many times on other lists.  My point is that 
> >recitation of Gaayatri and Vedas has a very secure, and 
sampradaayic 
> >position in ISCKON which we should respect.
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam 
> http://www.vedics.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
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