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Ramanuja List Archive: Message 00002 Sep 2004

 
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Dear Sriman,

Indeed it is very interesting.  Just out of curiosity.... Can you also tell 
what is the reply of Sankara and Madhwa to the Sunyavada of  Buddhists.

Thanks & Regards
Mohan Ramanujadasan.




On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 Arvind Rajagopalan wrote :
>
>Dear Bhagavatas,
>
>An interesting email from my father i wanted to share
>with all.
>
>Adiyen Ramanuja dasan
>
>Aravindan
>******************************************
>In the latest issues of Kumudam Bhakti, we are
>translating Brahma sutras which deal with Buddhism. As
>you may know the second chapter of BS is called
>Avirodha Adhyaya and the sutras therein argue how
>other philosophies like Lokayata, Jaina, Sankya,  Yoga
>Nyaya,,Vaishshika, Pasupatha are not supported by the
>Vedas .I thought you will like the arguments of BS
>against Buddhism as I found them a delight to my
>rational mind and hence this letter.
>
>First I will give the English translation of what we
>have written as introduction to the Adhikaranam
>dealing with Buddhism and then I will try to give you
>a translation of Sri Bhashya to give you a sample of
>the great intellect of Sri Ramanuja.
>
>
>
>Let us understand the essentials of Buddhism as an
>introduction to the Sutras that follow.
>
>Buddhism is divided into two main  branches,
>Mahayana(great Path) and Hinayana(lower path) Hinayana
>has again two branches called Vaibhashika and
>Southrandhika. Mahayana is divided into Yogachara or
>Vignanavada and Madhyamika.
>
>
>
>Two thousand five hundred years ago(circa BC
>563-483)lived Gautama Buddha one of the outstanding
>thinkers of mankind. His life history is fairly known
>to all of us.
>
>
>
>What he realised as the fundamental truth is this. In
>the universe every thing is changing every moment.
>Even the rocks and mountains change, slowly but
>surely. There in nothing that does not change.
>
>So, anything that changes cannot be true, meaning
>permanent What is true is change and not objects of
>change.  So nothing exists.(if you slice every moment
>into infinite parts and say that in every one of those
>parts things change, you will realise this)
>
>
>
>This Sunya philosophy  (nihilism) based on Khana
>Bhanga Nyayam, can be translated in English as under.
>
>
>
>Everything is changing and nothing is constantly
>existing. Since nothing has constant existence, it
>follows that nothing is real, or, only Nothing is
>real. Thus, nothing in fact exists.
>
>
>
>On the basis of the above principle of transience,
>Buddhists are called Sunyavadhis or Kshanikas.
>
>Let us now see the differences among the four
>branches.
>
>
>
>The external world of objects, thro our senses,
>becomes our internal world How can we say that our
>internal world is the exact replica of the external
>world?.
>
>Our senses may alter the external world and present to
>us an internal world, which may be totally different
> from the external world. Also we have said that every
>thing changes every moment . So both the external and
>internal worlds are changing, moment to moment.
>
>
>
>The Vaibhashikas say that though the external and
>internal worlds are changing every moment, for the
>duration of that one moment they are real, and they
>exist.
>
>The Southrandhikas say that the external world can
>only be guessed by us, since we only perceive the
>internal world and we can only deduct that the
>external world is a replica of the internal world.
>
>Since both say that the world is real, even though for
>a moment only, the Hinayanis are called Realists.
>
>Yogacharas say that by the logic of transience
>external world does not exist. Only the internal world
>or our thoughts are real.
>
>Madhyamikas go one step further and say by the same
>logic of transience, the internal world or our
>thoughts are also unreal ,since thoughts are also
>changing every moment.. Theirs is the ultimate
>nihilism.
>
>
>
>
>
>Now I will give a sample of Sri Bhashya.
>
>
>
>BS 2-2-30 Sarvada Anupapades cha.
>
>Sarvada- In every way.
>
>Anupapades cha-(Sunyavada) Is not tenable or
>appropriate..
>
>
>
>The Buddhists say thus.
>
>
>
>Gnana, or thought and external world does not exist
>This non-existence is the? ?reality?
>
>If an object exists, there must be a cause. For the
>pot to exist clay is the cause.
>
>The problem is, we cannot deduct the cause for
>anything.   Because we are not able to see anything
>created from another thing. Even clay has to be
>kneaded etc for becoming the pot and hence how can we
>say for sure, that the  pot is created by clay. So we
>say that if there is an object we cannot say for sure
>that it has been created from another existing object
>
>
>
> From  non existence no existing thing can be created.
>Out of nothing can anything come?( like in  a Sai baba
>trick!) Clay gets completely destroyed when pot is
>made. When clay gets destroyed there is nothing left .
>or only nothing is left. So pot cannot be created out
>of nothing. So we say the pot does not exist.
>
>
>
>There is a third possibility. From pot itself pot can
>come. But this is no creation.
>
>
>
>  We have proved that an existing thing cannot be
>created from another existing thing or a non existing
>thing In other words nothing can  exist!( Do you
>follow this logic? Buddha must have had a very sharp
>mind indeed)
>
>
>
>Ramanuja says in reply thus
>
>
>
>What do you say? Do you say things exist? Or Doyou say
>things don?t exist ? or do you say they exist and
>don?t exist ? None of the three assumptions will lead
>to Sunyavada.
>
>
>
>If you say things exist.. We have already proved that
>existence and non existence is  the knowledge or
>gnanam of status change. We see a pot and after
>someone removes the pot or it gets destroyed to become
>pieces, we don?t see the pot - this is a mere status
>change. So how can you say that nothing exists?
>Sunyavada fails.
>
>
>
>If by means of some logic or Pramana, you want to
>prove that everything is Sunyam, then since that logic
>or Pramana is also included in the statement that
>every thing is Sunya,  you can never prove your theory
>of Sunyavada.
>
>
>
>Are you confused to such a degree that you wish I
>stop? I stop here.
>
>Affly,
>
>Appa.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: arvind <rwind_raj@xxxxxxxxx>
> >Reply-To: rwind_raj@xxxxxxxxx
> >To: "rajagop_s@xxxxxxxxxxx" <rajagop_s@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >Subject: punyajanam pics
> >Date: 14 Aug 2004 22:21:09 -0700
> >
> >punyajanam pics
> >If you did not see the full album please click here
> >http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rwind_raj/album?.tok=phrmZlBB46hp4Qsm&.dir=/4899&.src=ph
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________
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>
>
>
>azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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