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Ramanuja List Archive: Message 00106 Sep 2005

 
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Dear Sri Padmanabhan Swami,

Thanks for the explanation. I do accept that the
acharyas have mentioned that ViNNulAr are Nitya Suris.
But, the apparent contradiction with other pramanas
too has to be dealt with. We also have the case of
Jaya and Vijaya, who are also Nitya Suris, but were
cursed etc. But, Vedanta Desikar is said to have
addressed this issue in one of his chillarai
rahasyangal, pointing out that they were not in
Vaikuntha,but in karya Vaikuntha or Lila vaikuntha. 

The vedanta sutras also say anArtti sabdAt anAvrtti
sabdat- he doesn't come back, he doesn't come back.

Now a question: Jaya and Vijaya were not Nitya Suris
but baddha Jivas who performed certain activities in
LIla Vaikuntham, similar to the Vaikuntham. How about
Sri GarudA? How does he come down and perform
activities?

Ramanuja dasi
Vedavalli Ranganathan

--- Padmanabhan <aazhwar@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Dear Madam, 
> 
> It is tempting for me to accept this explanation in
> total.
> Let me first give my thoughts.
> 
> 1. Yes, the words viNNuLAr , imayavar are some
> general terms and the meanings vary according to
> context. Here is where the vyAkyanam-s come into
> play we have to depend on them.
> 
> In EDu,viNNuLAr is taken as those who are serving
> Him there -The term nithya-sUri is categorically
> mentioned. Those who serve here is also mentioned.
> The point here is -yes, nithya-sUri-s are mentioned
> in the vyAkyAnam as being subjected to the
> vicissitudes of the five sensory organs.Going a step
> further, the episode of Thiruvadi is cited.
> 
> Therefore, we cannot gloss over what is given in
> vyAkyAnam-s and say that nithya-sUri-s are not
> subject to this, as the vyAkyAnam-s depict this
> clearly.
> 
> 2. Now a question may arise, when Bhagawadh GiTA
> mentions that it is pure sAtvic nature in the
> parama-padham, which is also mentioned in Sri PiLLai
> lOkAchAryA's Thathvathrayam, how come, here it is
> mentioned by AzhwAr that nithya-sUri-s are subject
> to this?
> 
> 3.Apparently there is a seeming contradiction. 
> 
> 4. On discussion with fellow srEvaishNavites,
> various opinions emerged :
> 
>  The fact that Thriuvadi visited indhra lOkam back
> and forth made him susceptible to such egoistic
> thoughts. 
>  A counter questions comes up . When the
> parama-padham is a watertight compartment -thunnittu
> pugal ariya vaikuntha nEL vAsal- how can sages and
> thiruvadi go back and forth/
> Perhaps, this incident did not occur in vaikuntham
> at all is one opinion.
> There is a place called 'lElA vaikuntham 'which is
> in this destoryable word -let us say, is another
> school of thought'
> 
> EmperumAn is spread everywhere. However, His
> omni-presence in senrtient and insentient beings
> does not affect Him.Others like Thiruvadi when they
> do migrate from VAikuntham get tainted by mixture of
> other two guNAs - is another opinion. Therefore, he
> got involved in this incident is one answer. 
> 
> 
> Conclusion : Yes, the word viNNuLar is
> interchangeable and general. We should refer to
> vyAkyAnam-s when this generality occurs.
> Here in this pAsuram, specifically nithya-sUri-s are
> referred in the vyAkyAnam. This cannot be refuted as
> EDu and other vyAkyAnam-s definitely quote this.
> That the vaikuntham is devoid of rajas and thams is
> clear from BG and Thathvathrayam.
> The several opinions which I cannot determine with
> conclusive proof is also given above.
> 
> Therefore, in my humble opinion either this should
> not have taken place in vaikuntham at all or this
> should be taken as an exception to the rule or there
> should be a better reconciliation which I am not
> able to make.
> 
> I shall make consultatons in in this regard.
> 
> Thank YOu
> 
> rAmAnuja dAsan
> vanamamalai padmanabhan
> 
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: saranathan 
>   To: ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; Padmanabhan ;
> panardasan@xxxxxxxxx ; vedaranga@xxxxxxxxx 
>   Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:28 PM
>   Subject: [ramanuja] ViNNUlAr
> 
> 
>   SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA.
> 
>    
> 
>   We often come across in prabhandham, words such as
> ViNNavar, Vanavar and Amarar used interchangeably.
> Imayavar and ViNNulAr are other terms used less
> often. But we can see a qualifying reference or
> context-orientedness at places where these terms are
> used, enabling us to deduce what the aazhwar intends
> to convey. It  is like how the same name brahma is
> used to denote both the all pervading Brahman and
> the four-faced brahma, with some prefix or
> contextual reference as in the sloka 'gurur brahma,
> gurur Vishnu:.saakshaath para-brahma..' 
> 
>    
> 
>   We can also see the same trend in Prabhandam
> verses. The aazhwar makes some qualifying remarks
> regarding whether he refers to devas or nithya
> sooris, in that particular context. The only
> verse(s) which I am able to recollect where all
> these terms are used to denote them to be in
> Vaikuntham is in "Soozh visumbhu" 10. The vanavar,
> iamayavar, vinnavar and munivar wait at the
> threshold of Vaikuntahm to receive the aazhwar. In
> other places, contextual reference makes them
> different from nithya sooris.
> 
>    
> 
>   First of all a clear distinction is made about who
> are qualified to be amarar or nithya sooris. As per
> Thiruvoimozhi 10-5-8,9&10, amarar are those who are
> not tainted by 'vinaigaL'.  The aazhwar refers to
> nithya sooris, when he says 'amara-th-thozhuvaarkku
> amaraa vinaigalE' In contrast, the Vinnavar are
> those who are in ViNNulagam and at many places in
> Prabhandam, Vinnavar are referred to in the context
> of or in contrast to MaNnavar, the  earthly beings.
> This ViNNulagam is part of the 3 world, Mooulagam.
> This mooulagam is part of created universe which has
> a beginning and an end within the total life span of
> 100 years of the four-faced Brahma deva. Therefore 
> the ViNnavar can not be amarar of amaraa vinaigaL 
> who accompany the Lord at Vaikuntham.
> 
>    
> 
>   In 10-2-6, a direct contrast is being made between
> amarar (nithya sooris) and Vanavar (devas of lokas
> like Indra loka). By telling 
> 'amararai-th-thirigindrar' we find  the amarar as
> Liberated souls like sage Bhrugu whose condition as
> expressed in 3rd chapter of Taittriyan Upanishad is
> similar to 'thiriyum amarar' or 'wandering Liberated
> soul'
> 
>   In the next line aazhwar talks about the 'viNNOr'
> (paNi seivar ViNNOr), thereby differentiating them
> from amarar. ViNNOr have some specific duties to
> perform whereas nithya sooris have no such
> designated duties, making them liberal  literally. 
> 
>    
> 
>   This duty-binding nature is what makes them
> subject to ups and downs and be endowed with
> faculties to carry out the duties. That is how they
> come to be aggrieved when asuras trouble them. In
> Thiruvoimozhi 7-8-6, it is said 'vaanavar tham
> thuyar theera..' bhagavan came down to earth to
> humble Bali. Similar instances can be quoted from
> Prabhandam to show that Vinnavar or vanavar or
> ViNNulAr  do undergo troubles, to wipe out which
> Bhagavan takes some steps. Thus the ViNNulAr refers
> to vaanavar coming within the framework of created
> worlds.
> 
>    
> 
>   Another source that can be cited is the Acharya
> Hrudhayam-description of Thiruvoimozhi (4th
> prakaraN). The 7th patthu in which this verse
> appears is generally about aazhwar's  'aakhrOsham'
> as to why Bhagavan has given  these indriyas that
> give trouble to him (jivas) Even ViNNulAr have not
> escaped the spell of the indriyas is what is made
> out in the first 10 of 7th patthu.
> 
>    
> 
>   Connecting this to BG, the individual soul upon
> attaining Brahman , gets the 'annadhithvaath,
> nirgunathvaath' nature (13-31) (or vice versa or
> this state happening simulatneous)  making it to
> have no need to do  work (na karOthi) . The sequence
> of jiva's journey in attaining Brahmanhood from
> verses 13-21 to 32 in BG  is of souls who enjoy
> Bhagavan. They are not those who suffer anything on
> any account, nor are they endowed with gunas and
> senses of prakruthi -born. They have transcended the
> gunas - they are nir-gunaath.  This means that if
> some entity is described to be suffering from or
> endowed with prakruthi-born attribute, then that
> entity can not be said to have attained brahmanhood,
> which in other words mean not having got a place in
> Vaikuntham. Therefore it can be conclusively said
> that ViNNulAr are not nithya sooris. They are VaanOr
> or 
=== message truncated ===


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