[percy-l] LITR
Jonathan Potter
jdp at scn.org
Tue Apr 11 02:26:23 EDT 2006
To bring it back around to what Rich was saying, I think there's a larger
framework for Percy -- a sacramental framework -- within which the priest,
"the other," the Jews, the natural world, Binx's dung beetle -- all function
sacramentally as signs of God's grace, or triggers for awakening to the
mysterious and gratuitous gift that existence is, and signs that point the
wayfarer onward -- the footprint in the sand, the thread in the labyrinth,
all those recurring Percy motifs that are ultimately woven into a
sacramental fabric -- but writ large in the Incarnation, the Church, the
magisterial tradition, the deposit of faith handed down from the apostles
and transmitted by concrete acts and gestures: laying on of hands, ingesting
Christ's body and blood, enjoying that Sears Best mattress and twining as
the ivy twineth, etc.
--Jonathan
On 4/10/06, RHONDA MCDONNELL <rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com> wrote:
>
> David,
>
> It makes perfect sense to me. In fact, that's the place where Percy
> differed
> from Kierkegaard. Whereas Kierkegaard saw that transition to the religious
> as a solitary movement, made without temporal aid, Percy makes "the other"
> a
> necessary component of salvation--its like that vision of the maculate
> Christ is LITR (which, long ago, was the starting point of this
> conversation)
>
> --Rhonda
> The best lack all convictions, while the worst
> Are full of passionate intensity. -- WB Yeats
>
>
> >From: "Beck, David A" <dabeck at iupui.edu>
> >Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> ><percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> >To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org
> >Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR
> >Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 20:32:21 -0400
> >
> >Rich,
> >You wrote:
> > > Jonathan's term "the Percyan scheme of things" is what interests me.
> > > I think Percy has a priestly character or priestly function in every
> > > novel. For example, Binx goes to Mass with his step-family -- an
> > > event at which a priest oversees the giving of blessing . You can
> > > use a priest to show the presence of grace, whereas without a priest,
> > > you must use symbolic settings, characters praying, characters
> > > talking about their faith, and scripture quoted or alluded to.
> > >
> >Sounds like a great M.A. thesis or dissertation. It seems the
> >priest/grace works in various ways. In Lancelot, I would argue (and did
> >many years ago) that Fr. John's return to his faith came through his
> >interaction with the other (Lance). In other words, grace is a two-way
> >street. It doesn't have to come via clergy. What's interesting about
> >Lancelot is that the priest is the main character, in the sense that he
> >is the one who changes. With Lance, we are left wondering. But Fr. John
> >has definitely returned to his Catholic faith.
> >What makes Percy a great writer is that, much like what Bakhtin said of
> >Dostoevsky, he lets the characters evolve through their ideas and
> >interactions. He doesn't have a set agenda (i.e. dogma) to which he
> >shapes his characters. Much like Dostoevsky, he seems to take
> >characters with particular ideas, winds them up, and lets them go. In a
> >"dogmatic" novel, Lance would've experienced some dramatic change. But
> >he didn't.
> >In the same way, Binx's "conversion" is subtle and easily missed by
> >someone not looking for the kind of grace that shoots through certain
> >novels/stories (much in the way that grace flashes like lightning in
> >Flannery O'Connor's stories--easily missed by those who read only on
> >the surface).
> >In LITR, More's "conversion" is also subtle. Again, the priest seems to
> >offer insights that help move More along the way, but, even in the end,
> >More still thinks that his lapsometer could "save the world."
> >So, it seems to me, that the priesthood plays an important part in
> >Percy, but perhaps not as important as "the other", in general. Percy
> >seems to use the other as a way to salvation/conversion, and the other
> >doesn't have to be clergy.
> >Does that make sense?
> >-David
> >
> >Quoting "Gray, Rich" <RGray at montreat.edu>:
> >
> > > Rhonda and Jonathan,
> > >
> > > I have been away for several days while you have been working on the
> > > question of priests in Percy, especially Fr. Weatherby. A useful
> > > conversation.
> > >
> > > As a protestant reader, I rely on Catholics or protestants with more
> > > insight than I, to figure out how priests work in Percy's novels.
> > >
> > > I have assumed that Weatherby is Catholic by being a "Father." Him
> > > substituting for Jack could be due to Jack's ecumenism coupled with
> > > Jack deferring to the institution's residents.
> > >
> > > Weatherby appreciates the Christian gospel that has been believed and
> > > practiced for centuries. Jack Curl seems not to have this
> > > ancient-based theology. His beliefs are sociological.
> > >
> > > Jonathan's term "the Percyan scheme of things" is what interests me.
> > > I think Percy has a priestly character or priestly function in every
> > > novel. For example, Binx goes to Mass with his step-family -- an
> > > event at which a priest oversees the giving of blessing . You can
> > > use a priest to show the presence of grace, whereas without a priest,
> > > you must use symbolic settings, characters praying, characters
> > > talking about their faith, and scripture quoted or alluded to.
> > >
> > > How does this sound?
> > >
> > > Rich
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jonathan Potter [mailto:jdp at scn.org]
> > > Sent: Sun 4/9/2006 7:24 PM
> > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> > > Cc:
> > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR
> > >
> > >
> > > You're absolutely right. I guess it just seemed like Fr.
> Weatherbee
> > > ought to be RC in the Percyan scheme of things.
> > >
> > > I couldn't find a discussion of their being episcopalians in the
> two
> > > collections of interviews, but I did find one reference, where the
> > > interviewer, Peggy Castex, remarks that sometimes it's hard to tell
> > > whether Percy's protagonist "is on the right track or the wrong
> > > track, whether he is deluded or has got part of the message which may
> > > lead him to the whole truth."
> > >
> > > To which Percy replies: "You ought to know as a displaced
> American,
> > > latterday French lady that a writer cannot get away with theological
> > > revelations.... Of course the key is at the end of the novel. It
> > > involves Will's relationship with Allie and the the nutty old priest
> > > [Weatherbee] who is out of his mind, but may be saner than the
> > > younger priest [Curl]." (More Conversations, p. 48)
> > >
> > > I guess you could expand the original question about priests to
> > > consider Catholics and/or other believers that appear in Percy's
> > > novels. Val would be one to consider for sure. And I would add
> > > Lonnie from The Moviegoer, along with Fr. Smith and Percival. I'm
> > > not sure I'd lump Fr. Boomer in LG in with the Fr. Curl type; it
> > > seems to me he does a pretty serviceable job with Jamie's baptism --
> > > but I can't remember whether he appears earlier.
> > >
> > > --Jonathan
> > >
> > >
> > > On 4/9/06, RHONDA MCDONNELL <rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > You're right, Episcopalian is the American term. For what
> it's worth,
> > > chapter 12 begins, "Father Weatherbee sat behind Jack
> Curl's mahogany
> >desk
> > > with its collection of Russian ikons and bleeding Mexican
> crucifixes."
> >Both
> > > Weatherbee and Curl are Episcopalian. What I can't
> remember is why
> >Percy
> > > made them Episcopalian. He discusses it in an interview,
> but I don't
> >have
> > > the time to dig it up. While I'm here in chapter 12, Fr.
> Weatherbee's
> >rant:
> > >
> > > How can we be the best earest most generous people on
> earth, and at
> > > the same
> > > time so unhappy? How harsh everyone is here! How restless!
> How
> >impatient!
> > > How worried! How sarcastic! How unhappy! How hateful! How
> >pleasure-loving!
> > > How lascivious! Above all, how selfish! Why is it that we
> have more
> > > than any
> > > other people, are more generous with what we have, and yet
> are so
> >selfish
> > > and unhappy? Why do we think of hothing but our own
> pleasure? I cannot
> > > believe my eyes at what I see on television. It makes me
> blush with
> >shame.
> > > Did you know that pleasure-seeking leads to cruelty? That
> is why more
> >and
> > > more people beat their children. Children interfere with
> pleasure. Do
> >you
> > > hate children? Why can't we be grateful for our great
> blessings and
> >thank
> > > God? . . . Why is it that Americans who are the best
> dearest most
> >generous
> > > people on earth are so unhappy?"
> > >
> > > He's definitely in the same vein as Father Smith. And
> Boomer (wasn't
> >that
> > > his name?) is Last Gentleman is of the Jack Curl type. The
> question
> > > beginning of this line of thought, regarding Percy's
> priests, is a
> > > good one.
> > > It looks like he's working from two types--my question is,
> can Val
> > > from Last
> > > Gentleman be grouped with Frs. Weatherbee and Smith?
> > > --Rhonda
> > > The best lack all convictions, while the worst
> > > Are full of passionate intensity. -- WB Yeats
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Jonathan Potter" <jdp at scn.org>
> > > >Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical
> Discussion"
> > > >< percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org <mailto:
> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org> >
> > > >To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > > ><percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > >Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR
> > > >Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 10:02:24 -0700
> > > >
> > > >I thought Fr. Weatherbee (the priest Will questions at
> the end,
> >grabbing
> > > >his
> > > >arm) was Roman Catholic. It's been awhile since I've
> read it, but
> >I'm
> > > >pretty sure it was just the priest earlier in the book
> that was
> > > >Anglican/Episcopalian.
> > > >
> > > >Jonathan Potter
> > > >Spokane WA
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >On 4/8/06, RHONDA MCDONNELL < rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com
> > > <mailto:rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > wasn't the first one you mention the guy that wore the
> jumpsuits
> >and
> > > >acts
> > > > > more like a building super than a priest? Jack Curl
> maybe? The
> >second
> > > >was
> > > > > Fr. Weatherbee, whose rant regarding the behavior of
> Americans is
> > > > > genius--wasn't the quote something about his silly (or
> simple),
> >holy
> > > >face?
> > > > > Weatherbee is definitely linked to Fr. Smith. He seems
> to be daft
> >but
> > > >he's
> > > > > really the one that's onto something that no one else
> is paying
> > > >attention
> > > > > to. He knows the truth of things. That's why Will asks
> him the
> > > important
> > > > > questions. Worth noting is that the priests in 2nd
> Coming are
> >Anglican
> > > >(as
> > > > > is the priest Lance is named for in Lancelot).
> > > > >
> > > > > --Rhonda
> > > > > The best lack all convictions, while the worst
> > > > > Are full of passionate intensity. -- WB Yeats
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: <Robert_Pauley at oxy.com>
> > > > > >Reply-To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical
> Discussion"
> > > > > >< percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > > >To: <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > > >Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR
> > > > > >Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 10:23:07 -0700
> > > > > >
> > > > > >A couple of priests played pivotal roles in The
> Second Coming.
> > > I don't
> > > > > >recall his name, but the parish priest always trying
> to encourage
> >Will
> > > > > >Barrett to join his church's men's group outings and
> otherwise
> >come
> > > > > >"into the fold" was one, and represented the kind the
> extreme
> > > > > >earnestness which Percy, or at least Barrett, found
> >simultaneously
> > > > > >cloying and yet not unimportant to a community. The
> second was
> >an
> > > > > >older, former renegade missionary who jolts Will into
> his final,
> > > > > >redemptive awareness that "a gift may be a sign of a
> giver." I
> >found
> > > > > >this Percy novel to be his most accomplished and
> accessible: a
> >solidly
> > > > > >grounded meditation on suburban malaise and
> self-delusion, an
> > > effective
> > > > > >and prescient social satire (Will's daughter's
> "new-age"
> >enthusiasms
> > > >are
> > > > > >hilarious), and a touching love story. Not easy to
> pull off. It
> > > > > >tracked a character straight through from the impulse
> to suicide
> >to a
> > > > > >saving awareness without ever resorting to the kind
> of dopey
> > > flourishes
> > > > > >of so many other social satires of the time - and
> afterward.
> > > >Basically,
> > > > > >Will Barrett loses his mind without ever losing his
> head. I also
> > > > > >appreciated the fact that it followed up on Will
> Barrett after
> >leaving
> > > > > >him off in a Santa Fe wasteland so many years before.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Peace.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > >From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > >[mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf
> Of Dye,
> >Steve
> > > > > >Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 7:35 AM
> > > > > >To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> > > > > >Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >You are asking a very loaded question - it will be
> interesting to
> >see
> > > > > >the responses you get!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Steven L. Dye, MA
> > > > > >Director
> > > > > >Bluegrass MH-MR Board, Inc.
> > > > > >1500 Leestown Road, Suite 338
> > > > > >Lexington, KY 40511
> > > > > >
> > > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > > >From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > > >[mailto: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > <mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org> ] On Behalf Of Gray, Rich
> > > > > >Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 10:31 AM
> > > > > >To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> > > > > >Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > >From: Dye, Steve [mailto:sldye at bluegrass.org ]
> > > > > >Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 9:43 AM
> > > > > >To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Have any of you considered the role of priests in
> Percy's novels?
> > Is
> > > > > >there any common thread?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >In The Moviegoer is there a priest? The role grows
> into a main
> > > > > >character in The Thanatos Syndrome, Father Reynaldo
> Smith. There
> >must
> > > > > >be a purpose for these priests.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >As a Protestant Christian, I would like to know if
> Catholic Percy
> > > > > >readers see any of these priests as realistic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Rich Gray
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >--
> > > > > >An archive of all list discussion is available at
> > > > > >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at
> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger!
> Download today -
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> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > An archive of all list discussion is available at
> > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/
> > > > >
> > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at
> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >--
> > > >An archive of all list discussion is available at
> > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/
> > > <http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/>
> > > >
> > > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at
> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> > >
> > >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download
> today - it's
> >FREE!
> > >
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> > >
> > > --
> > > An archive of all list discussion is available at
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/
> > >
> > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at
> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >An archive of all list discussion is available at
> >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/
> >
> >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>
> --
> An archive of all list discussion is available at
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>
> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
>
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