[percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9
Michael Larson
larsonovic at gmail.com
Mon Jul 20 13:08:34 EDT 2020
Tom,
I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the
afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less
hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. People
have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not preclude it
from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's anticipatory
perceptions of it.
You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left unpretentiously
with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is then
presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all pretensions have
been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective notion--one
person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you were
getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell could be
communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward the
divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual in
question.
But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and
communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward God
(in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a
description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in charge. But
he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that Percival has
attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own ideas.
And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that
Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but it's
not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes."
So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a
refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no
unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific vision.
But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no
confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing now
except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is fixed,
according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell him, the
thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that Lance's
release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the long
recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon death.
And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new
beginning of sorts but not a happy one.
In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume that
Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of Percival
over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men feel
more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the dead.
We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer in the
cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) grave,
that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of life,
Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he prays.
But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's fate,
and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance.
On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been telling
his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then we can
speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to bring
Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At novel's end,
he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had to
reach in order to find life.
Mike
On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 1:06 PM <percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
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> 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 (Thomas Gollier)
> 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 (Lauren Berdy)
> 3. Re: [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6
> (Beck, David A)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 09:13:03 -0700
> From: Thomas Gollier <tgollier at gmail.com>
> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6
> Message-ID:
> <CAMVPF1Ftr245bqaSVQc6TUOWLUBhB-MGM1NaS_4VuOdxZL5o=
> g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Mike,
>
> Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all
> along that he was talking to God
> ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize
> until pretty far along that this
> other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a
> conversation with another
> seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me,
> but either way, God or Percival
> was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was referring
> to Lance dying in the
> explosion along with the others in the house.
>
> So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no
> longer living, and what they
> have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. If
> I can go further out on the
> limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we
> are with ourselves. Unlike
> how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things
> objectively, there can be no
> dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that
> subjective self will evaporate. If
> that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can
> be one thing for Lance and
> another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a
> "poison" to the social and
> objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's confession
> all along seems to be the
> story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his
> redemption at the end.
>
> That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the
> first time, but in my defense, I
> think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves "poetic
> thought" as Wallace Stevens
> put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying
> to describe the vista Percy opened
> up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson <larsonovic at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Tom,
> >
> > Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the
> > explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that
> of
> > a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from
> > beyond the grave?
> >
> > I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two
> > different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in
> both
> > ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both,
> > objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the
> > reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is.
> >
> > But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning.
> >
> > Best,
> > Mike
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 13:32:53 -0400
> From: Lauren Berdy <lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com>
> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6
> Message-ID: <5f11e0c5.1c69fb81.f2a7b.43bf at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> . ?If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If
> that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can
> be one thing for Lance and
> another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a
> "poison" to the social and
> objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's
> confession all along seems to be the
> story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his
> redemption at the end.?
>
>
> The reason this human was so captivated by reading Dr Percy was how he
> himself struggled with his own subjective self.
>
> The communion tween Percival and Lance was a way to transmit the unknowing?
> The interval between two thoughts is not a blank but a silence. Whilst
> the Former is a sign of inadequacy, the latter enables thoughts to complete
> themselves so that they are not crowded. ( think how many times DP went to
> silently commune with other men(?the interval is used in art???think
> Chinese painting?to encourage the onlooker to look at the picture poised
> and silent. The space in the painting corresponds to the interval between
> the thought and the mind.
>
> Perhaps reality cannot be communicated but, it can somehow be known? Is
> that then Compassion?
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: Thomas Gollier
> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 12:13 PM
> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6
>
> Mike,
>
> Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all
> along that he was talking to God
> ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize
> until pretty far along that this
> other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a
> conversation with another
> seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me,
> but either way, God or Percival
> was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was referring
> to Lance dying in the
> explosion along with the others in the house.
>
> So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no
> longer living, and what they
> have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. If
> I can go further out on the
> limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we
> are with ourselves. Unlike
> how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things
> objectively, there can be no
> dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that
> subjective self will evaporate. If
> that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can
> be one thing for Lance and
> another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a
> "poison" to the social and
> objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's
> confession all along seems to be the
> story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his
> redemption at the end.
>
> That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the
> first time, but in my defense, I
> think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves "poetic
> thought" as Wallace Stevens
> put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying
> to describe the vista Percy opened
> up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson <larsonovic at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> Tom,
>
> Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the
> explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of
> a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from
> beyond the grave?
>
> I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two
> different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both
> ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both,
> objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the
> reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is.
>
> But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning.
>
> Best,
> Mike
>
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000
> From: "Beck, David A" <dabeck at iupui.edu>
> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue
> 6
> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 at iupui.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't
> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to
> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he
> wasn't repentant.
>
>
> It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At
> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After
> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then he
> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in
> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the real
> protagonist.
>
>
> If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :-)
>
>
> Just my two cents.
>
>
> -David
>
>
> David Beck
> Senior Lecturer
> English Department
> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis
> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E
> Indianapolis, IN 46202
> 317-278-2550
> ________________________________
> From: Percy-L <percy-l-bounces+dabeck=iupui.edu at lists.ibiblio.org> on
> behalf of Lauren Berdy <lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 1:32 PM
> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> Subject: [External] Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6
>
> This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when
> clicking links or opening attachments from external sources.
>
> . ?If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If
> that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can
> be one thing for Lance and
> another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a
> "poison" to the social and
> objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's
> confession all along seems to be the
> story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his
> redemption at the end.?
>
>
> The reason this human was so captivated by reading Dr Percy was how he
> himself struggled with his own subjective self.
>
> The communion tween Percival and Lance was a way to transmit the unknowing?
> The interval between two thoughts is not a blank but a silence. Whilst
> the Former is a sign of inadequacy, the latter enables thoughts to complete
> themselves so that they are not crowded. ( think how many times DP went to
> silently commune with other men(?the interval is used in art???think
> Chinese painting?to encourage the onlooker to look at the picture poised
> and silent. The space in the painting corresponds to the interval between
> the thought and the mind.
>
> Perhaps reality cannot be communicated but, it can somehow be known? Is
> that then Compassion?
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
> From: Thomas Gollier<mailto:tgollier at gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 12:13 PM
> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion<mailto:
> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6
>
> Mike,
>
> Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all
> along that he was talking to God
> ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize
> until pretty far along that this
> other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a
> conversation with another
> seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me,
> but either way, God or Percival
> was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was referring
> to Lance dying in the
> explosion along with the others in the house.
>
> So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no
> longer living, and what they
> have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. If
> I can go further out on the
> limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we
> are with ourselves. Unlike
> how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things
> objectively, there can be no
> dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that
> subjective self will evaporate. If
> that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can
> be one thing for Lance and
> another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a
> "poison" to the social and
> objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's
> confession all along seems to be the
> story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his
> redemption at the end.
>
> That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the
> first time, but in my defense, I
> think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves "poetic
> thought" as Wallace Stevens
> put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying
> to describe the vista Percy opened
> up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson <larsonovic at gmail.com
> <mailto:larsonovic at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Tom,
>
> Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the
> explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of
> a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from
> beyond the grave?
>
> I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two
> different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both
> ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both,
> objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the
> reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is.
>
> But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning.
>
> Best,
> Mike
>
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>
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