[percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9

Michael Larson larsonovic at gmail.com
Mon Jul 20 16:11:47 EDT 2020


Tom, Something else I meant to say but forgot before I clicked SEND: I've
really appreciated thinking about Lancelot from this perspective. Very
interesting exercise. So thanks for that!  ML

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 12:08 PM Michael Larson <larsonovic at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Tom,
>
> I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the
> afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less
> hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. People
> have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not preclude it
> from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's anticipatory
> perceptions of it.
>
> You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left unpretentiously
> with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is then
> presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all pretensions have
> been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective notion--one
> person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you were
> getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell could be
> communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward the
> divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual in
> question.
>
> But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and
> communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward God
> (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a
> description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in charge. But
> he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that Percival has
> attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own ideas.
> And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that
> Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but it's
> not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes."
>
> So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a
> refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no
> unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific vision.
> But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no
> confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing now
> except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is fixed,
> according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell him, the
> thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that Lance's
> release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the long
> recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon death.
> And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new
> beginning of sorts but not a happy one.
>
> In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume that
> Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of Percival
> over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men feel
> more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the dead.
> We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer in the
> cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) grave,
> that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of life,
> Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he prays.
> But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's fate,
> and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance.
>
> On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been
> telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then we can
> speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to bring
> Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At novel's end,
> he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had to
> reach in order to find life.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 1:06 PM <percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 (Thomas Gollier)
>>    2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 (Lauren Berdy)
>>    3. Re: [External] Re:  Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6
>>       (Beck, David A)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 09:13:03 -0700
>> From: Thomas Gollier <tgollier at gmail.com>
>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
>>         <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6
>> Message-ID:
>>         <CAMVPF1Ftr245bqaSVQc6TUOWLUBhB-MGM1NaS_4VuOdxZL5o=
>> g at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all
>> along that he was talking to God
>> ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize
>> until pretty far along that this
>> other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a
>> conversation with another
>> seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me,
>> but either way, God or Percival
>> was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was referring
>> to Lance dying in the
>> explosion along with the others in the house.
>>
>> So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no
>> longer living, and what they
>> have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. If
>> I can go further out on the
>> limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we
>> are with ourselves. Unlike
>> how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things
>> objectively, there can be no
>> dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that
>> subjective self will evaporate. If
>> that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can
>> be one thing for Lance and
>> another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a
>> "poison" to the social and
>> objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's
>> confession
>> all along seems to be the
>> story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his
>> redemption at the end.
>>
>> That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the
>> first time, but in my defense, I
>> think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves "poetic
>> thought" as Wallace Stevens
>> put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying
>> to describe the vista Percy opened
>> up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tom
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson <larsonovic at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Tom,
>> >
>> > Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the
>> > explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that
>> of
>> > a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from
>> > beyond the grave?
>> >
>> > I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two
>> > different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in
>> both
>> > ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be
>> both,
>> > objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the
>> > reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is.
>> >
>> > But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Mike
>> >
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 13:32:53 -0400
>> From: Lauren Berdy <lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com>
>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
>>         <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6
>> Message-ID: <5f11e0c5.1c69fb81.f2a7b.43bf at mx.google.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> . ?If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If
>> that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can
>> be one thing for Lance and
>> another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a
>> "poison" to the social and
>> objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's
>> confession all along seems to be the
>> story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his
>> redemption at the end.?
>>
>>
>> The reason this human was so captivated by reading Dr Percy was how he
>> himself struggled with his own subjective self.
>>
>> The communion tween Percival and Lance was a way to transmit the
>> unknowing?
>>  The interval between two thoughts is not a blank but a silence.  Whilst
>> the Former is a sign of inadequacy, the latter enables thoughts to complete
>> themselves so that they are not crowded. ( think how many times DP went to
>> silently commune with other men(?the interval is used in art???think
>> Chinese painting?to encourage the onlooker to look at the picture poised
>> and silent. The  space in the painting corresponds to the interval between
>> the thought and the mind.
>>
>> Perhaps reality cannot be communicated but, it can somehow be known? Is
>> that then Compassion?
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>
>> From: Thomas Gollier
>> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 12:13 PM
>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all
>> along that he was talking to God
>> ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize
>> until pretty far along that this
>> other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a
>> conversation with another
>> seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me,
>> but either way, God or Percival
>> was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was
>> referring to Lance dying in the
>> explosion along with the others in the house.
>>
>> So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no
>> longer living, and what they
>> have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be.
>> If I can go further out on the
>> limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we
>> are with ourselves. Unlike
>> how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things
>> objectively, there can be no
>> dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that
>> subjective self will evaporate. If
>> that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can
>> be one thing for Lance and
>> another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a
>> "poison" to the social and
>> objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's
>> confession all along seems to be the
>> story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his
>> redemption at the end.
>>
>> That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the
>> first time, but in my defense, I
>> think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves
>> "poetic thought" as Wallace Stevens
>> put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying
>> to describe the vista Percy opened
>> up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tom
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson <larsonovic at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> Tom,
>>
>> Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the
>> explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of
>> a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from
>> beyond the grave?
>>
>> I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two
>> different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both
>> ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both,
>> objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the
>> reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is.
>>
>> But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning.
>>
>> Best,
>> Mike
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200717/5678d0a0/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000
>> From: "Beck, David A" <dabeck at iupui.edu>
>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
>>         <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re:  Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue
>>         6
>> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 at iupui.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't
>> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to
>> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he
>> wasn't repentant.
>>
>>
>> It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At
>> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After
>> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then he
>> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in
>> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the real
>> protagonist.
>>
>>
>> If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :-)
>>
>>
>> Just my two cents.
>>
>>
>> -David
>>
>>
>> David Beck
>> Senior Lecturer
>> English Department
>> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis
>> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E
>> Indianapolis, IN 46202
>> 317-278-2550
>> ________________________________
>> From: Percy-L <percy-l-bounces+dabeck=iupui.edu at lists.ibiblio.org> on
>> behalf of Lauren Berdy <lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 1:32 PM
>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
>> Subject: [External] Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6
>>
>> This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when
>> clicking links or opening attachments from external sources.
>>
>> . ?If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If
>> that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can
>> be one thing for Lance and
>> another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a
>> "poison" to the social and
>> objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's
>> confession all along seems to be the
>> story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his
>> redemption at the end.?
>>
>>
>> The reason this human was so captivated by reading Dr Percy was how he
>> himself struggled with his own subjective self.
>>
>> The communion tween Percival and Lance was a way to transmit the
>> unknowing?
>> The interval between two thoughts is not a blank but a silence.  Whilst
>> the Former is a sign of inadequacy, the latter enables thoughts to complete
>> themselves so that they are not crowded. ( think how many times DP went to
>> silently commune with other men(?the interval is used in art???think
>> Chinese painting?to encourage the onlooker to look at the picture poised
>> and silent. The  space in the painting corresponds to the interval between
>> the thought and the mind.
>>
>> Perhaps reality cannot be communicated but, it can somehow be known? Is
>> that then Compassion?
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
>> Windows 10
>>
>> From: Thomas Gollier<mailto:tgollier at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 12:13 PM
>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion<mailto:
>> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all
>> along that he was talking to God
>> ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize
>> until pretty far along that this
>> other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a
>> conversation with another
>> seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me,
>> but either way, God or Percival
>> was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was
>> referring to Lance dying in the
>> explosion along with the others in the house.
>>
>> So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no
>> longer living, and what they
>> have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be.
>> If I can go further out on the
>> limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we
>> are with ourselves. Unlike
>> how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things
>> objectively, there can be no
>> dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that
>> subjective self will evaporate. If
>> that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can
>> be one thing for Lance and
>> another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a
>> "poison" to the social and
>> objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's
>> confession all along seems to be the
>> story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his
>> redemption at the end.
>>
>> That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the
>> first time, but in my defense, I
>> think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves
>> "poetic thought" as Wallace Stevens
>> put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying
>> to describe the vista Percy opened
>> up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tom
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson <larsonovic at gmail.com
>> <mailto:larsonovic at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Tom,
>>
>> Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the
>> explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of
>> a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from
>> beyond the grave?
>>
>> I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two
>> different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both
>> ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both,
>> objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the
>> reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is.
>>
>> But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning.
>>
>> Best,
>> Mike
>>
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>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
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>>
>> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9
>> ***************************************
>>
>
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