[B-Greek] John 17 DEDWKAS

Alexander Loney alexander.loney at duke.edu
Thu Oct 28 10:43:21 EDT 2004


Some of these examples are more explainable than others in my estimation.
The final one, 17:8, seems to use the perfect as a distinctly more marked
stative (emphasizing the present and enduring circumstance of J.'s passing
to the disciples the earthly ministry while he, who had been given that
ministry, will be leaving). That stands in contrast to the less marked
aorist EDWKAS that characterizes the "completeness" (not in a theological
way... in a grammatical, perspectival way) of J.'s part.

And, I think, Carl, even if it is not clear to us how to distinguish between
perfective aorists and seemingly perfective perfects, there must be *some*
distinction, else John would have used only one or the other. Perhaps we are
seeing a language in transition (aren't we always?), but I see no way to
explain the presence of both aspects throughout the passage so easily. 

-------------------------------------------------------
Alexander Loney
Duke University
Classical Studies
 
now the ears of my ears are awake and 
now the eyes of my eyes are opened
                                          - e e cummings
 

-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Arie Dirkzwager
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 6:17 AM
To: Wieland Willker; Carl W. Conrad
Cc: B-Greek
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 17 DEDWKAS

Is it possible that we have to look for a Hebrew/Aramaic  background for
these changes? There we have an alternation between perfect and imperfect in
sentences in parataxis in order to express what we would like to say in
hypotaxis. I think it is possible that a Semite continues to use the
alternation where he is writing in hypotaxis.

Arie


Dr. A. Dirkzwager
Hoeselt, Belgium
e-mail dirkzwager at pandora.be

----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
Aan: "Wieland Willker" <willker at chemie.uni-bremen.de>
CC: "B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Verzonden: donderdag 28 oktober 2004 12:04
Onderwerp: Re: [B-Greek] John 17 DEDWKAS


> At 9:43 AM +0200 10/28/04, Wieland Willker wrote:
> >In John 17 no less than 17 times forms of DIDWMI like DEDWKAS, DEDWKA,
> >EDWKAS etc. appear.
> >I am wondering if there is a difference in meaning between the Aorist
> >and the Perfect. Why those changes from Aorist to Perfect? Compare:
> >John 17:2 KAQWS EDWKAS AUTW EXOUSIAN PASHS SARKOS, INA PAN O DEDWKAS
> >AUTW DWSH AUTOIS ZWHN AIWNION.
> >17:4 EGW SE EDOXASA EPI THS GHS TO ERGON TELEIWSAS O DEDWKAS MOI INA
> >POIHSW,
> >17:6 EFANERWSA SOU TO ONOMA TOIS ANQRWPOIS OUS EDWKAS MOI EK TOU KOSMOU.
> >SOI HSAN KAMOI AUTOUS EDWKAS KAI TON LOGON SOU TETHRHKAN.
> >17:7 NUN EGNWKAN OTI PANTA OSA DEDWKAS MOI PARA SOU EISIN,
> >17:8 OTI TA RHMATA A EDWKAS MOI DEDWKA AUTOIS
> >...
>
> Well, for what it's worth, my own judgment is that the author of GJn
> appears sometimes to use the perfect tense deliberately with emphasis upon
> the stative present, but that on the other hand he perhaps provides more
> evidence than most GNT authors of the tendency of the aorist to supplant
> the perfect in the indicative so that any real distinction between the
> perfect as stative and the aorist as perfective has become moot. I really
> don't believe that there's any aspectual difference between EDWKAS and
> DEDWKAS in 17:2 or in the other aorists and perfects in these verses. I'd
> convey them all in English with the auxiliary "have" and the participle.
> --
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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>
>

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