[B-Greek] local dative Col 1:16

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Tue Dec 27 22:33:19 EST 2005


 
On Tuesday, December 27, 2005, at 07:51PM, <kgraham0938 at comcast.net> wrote:

>Hey Dr.Conrad, yes I normally took it to be "by means of him." (sorry about the Nun)   Here is the weird thing, BDF says on page 107 $199
>
>"The dative of place, which is already extremely limited in the classical period, is missing from the NT (apart from sterotyped KUKLWi & CAMAI;.)"

I think they're speaking of the locative dative without a preposition. There can hardly be any question that EN + locative dative is common in the GNT. On the other hand, EN + instrumental dative in the sense of "by means of" does appear, albeit not so very commonly.

>Then when discussing EV on page 117, $ 219, (1) Col 1:16 EN AUTWi EKTISQH - DI AUTOU EKTISTAI originally not instrumental.
>
>What do you think BDF is refering too here in regards to what it originally was?  

I'm away from my reference library now and cannot check it; all I will say at the moment is that I'm not convinced that EN AUTWI EKTISQH means "was created/established by him."


>-------------- Original message -------------- 
>From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com> 
>
>> EN does normally take a locative dative. 
>> 
>> On Tuesday, December 27, 2005, at 06:41PM, wrote: 
>> 
>> >Hey I just came across something interesting in BDAG, the argue that 
>> > 
>> >hOTI EV AUTWi EKTISQH TA PANTA EN TOIS OURANOIS should be considered a local 
>> dative since EN AUTWi would otherwise be identical with DI AUTOS. 
>> 
>> Might I ask for consistent use of "N" for Nu? We seem frequently to get a 
>> hodge-podge of V and N; here we have a preponderance of N but one V. 
>> 
>> >I always took it as a instrumental dative. 
>> 
>> Do you understand the sense to be "by (means of) him?" But you don't normally 
>> get an instrumental dative to express agent. That is, the instrumental dative 
>> normally is used of an impersonal causal factor. 
>> 
>> I think I would understand EN AUTWi in much the same way as we understand the 
>> phrase EN CRISTWi: it indicates the focal point. 
>> 
>> 
>> Carl W. Conrad 
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus) 
>> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243 
>> cwconrad2 at mac.com 
>> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/ 
>> --- 
>> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek 
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/



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