[B-Greek] "attain" for "find"?

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Thu Jul 27 10:38:23 EDT 2006


I would have thought that Italian "ottenuto" would English as  
"OBtained" rather than "ATtained."

On Jul 27, 2006, at 9:24 AM, Fridolin Janzen wrote:

> What if the word “find”, “heuriskō” would simply be  
> translated with one of its secondary meanings (according to Thayer:  
> obtain, attain), instead of with its primary meaning, as the  
> italian Riveduta Luzzi does, using “attained”:
>
>
>
> Rom 4:1  Che diremo dunque che l'antenato nostro Abramo abbia  
> ottenuto secondo la carne?
>
>
>
>
>
> "What then shall we say (that) Abraham, our forefather, attained  
> according to the flesh?”
>
>
>
> According to the flesh Abraham attained the Middle East conflict.  
> According to faith he attained the Lord’ righteousness.
>
>
>
> Pastor Fridolin Janzen
>
>
>
>
>
> Message: 7
>
> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 10:53:39 -0500
>
> From: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard at ont.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Romans 4:1
>
> To: B-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>
> Message-ID: <44C79003.9050103 at ont.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
>
> Dear Stephen,
>
>
>
>> Yes, since ABRAAM is indeclinable it "could" serve as subject for
>
>> hEURHKENAI, but then the sentence would make little or no sense.   
>> (1) "What
>
>> then shall we say (that) Abraham finds our forefather according to  
>> flesh?"
>
>> or (2) "What then shall we say (that) Abraham, our forefather, finds
>
>> according to flesh?" We can certainly rule out (2) since  
>> hEURHKENAI is
>
>> transitive, but there is nothing to provide an object.  And (1) is  
>> just
>
>> nonsensical, since Abraham obviously is the forefather under issue.
>
>> Therefore, I think one can rule out ABRAAM as subject for hEURHKENAI.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
> HH: Maybe I just don't understand you, but option 2 above is that  
> taken
>
> by nearly every major translation of the Bible and makes perfect  
> sense.
>
> The object of the transitive verb is "what," since this is a question.
>
> The object is TI.
>
>
>
> TI OUN EROUMEN hEURHKENAI ABRAAM TON PROPATORA hHMWN KATA SARKA
>
>
>
>
>
> However, the textual evidence favors to a consider extent that
>
> "according to the flesh" goes with "forefather":
>
>
>
> "What then shall we say (that) Abraham, our forefather according to  
> the flesh, has found?
>
>
>
>
>
> Yours,
>
> Harold Holmyard
>
>
>
>
>
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> End of B-Greek Digest, Vol 43, Issue 29
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/





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