[B-Greek] TETARAKTAI in JOHN 12:27
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Tue Mar 4 11:30:16 EST 2008
As I noted in a follow-up, I really think this is stative: "My mind is
in turmoil" or "I am distressed." I really don't think that the fact
that it's perfect tense has anything to do with spontaneity or lack of
it or with some necessarily external cause. I agree that we can
understand the factors involved in the distress, but I don't see why
the perfect tense as such -- particularly when it's stative --
indicating a current state -- has any bearing on the matter.
cwc
On Mar 4, 2008, at 11:06 AM, Webb Mealy wrote:
> I usually think, when I see the perfect, that something in
> particular has
> given rise to the current ongoing status. In the current context
> John makes
> it clear that Jesus is acutely aware of the fact that the end of his
> life is
> impending.
>
> Do you think that the perfect could be used when the state it
> expresses has
> arisen more or less spontaneously, without a known cause? For
> example, could
> someone say, "I don't know why, but I'm feeling deeply upset (hH
> YUCH MOU
> TETARAKTAI) right now"? Or does the perfect drag in the sense of
> what caused
> the state? I'm aware of the middle sense, which doesn't have an
> outside
> agent. It's what I was taught about the perfect that has me hung up.
>
> Webb Mealy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Carl Conrad
> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 4:41 AM
> To: Elizabeth Kline
> Cc: greek B-Greek
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] TETARAKTAI in JOHN 12:27
>
> I think, on further thought, that TETARAKTAI in Jn 12:27 is best
> understood as a stative: "My mind is in turmoil."
> On Mar 3, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Carl Conrad wrote:
>
>>
>> On Mar 3, 2008, at 4:56 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>>
>>> JOHN 12:27 NUN hH YUCH MOU TETARAKTAI ...
>>>
>>> Here we have a middle/pass perfect with hH YUCH as subject. This
>>> clause has low transitivity. hH YUCH is not an agent or a patient.
>>> The verb TETARAKTAI describes a state without any suggestion (within
>>> this clause) of how hH YUCH came to be in this state, i.e. no cause
>>> or agent is encoded. However, a cause can be supplied without
>>> difficulty from the local discourse.
>>>
>>> Two questions:
>>>
>>> In traditional grammar TETARAKTAI would be described as a passive.
>>> The passive has been understood as a means of suppressing the notion
>>> of agency but I am not sure how relevant this is to states.
>>>
>>> I am having some difficulty fitting this into the "middle marked for
>>> subject affectedness" scheme of things.
>>
>> On my view, the verb is essentially a middle verb (we've already
>> noted
>> that the middle-passive forms are much more frequent than actives in
>> both GNT and) LXX); the active is a causative form of TARASSOMAI.
>> TETARAKTAI is simply the perfect tense of TARASSOMAI in the sense
>> "enter into turmoil." To this I would add, what others might not
>> concede, that I believe that there's little difference in standard
>> Koine usage between TETARAKTAI and ETARACQH (i.e. that both bear the
>> sense "has come into turmoil." Moreover, even if one wants to speak
>> of
>> a cause, the cause is surely within the psyche. In terms of Allan's
>> and Kemmer's categories, this is a "mental process middle" -- "an
>> animate subject that experiences a mental affectedness" -- not far
>> removed from a "spontaneous process middle" which better
>> characterizes
>> an inanimate subject.
>>
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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>
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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