[B-Greek] John 12:27 TI EIPW
Vasile Stancu
stancu at mail.dnttm.ro
Wed Oct 22 01:40:29 EDT 2008
In fact, I myself do not like at all such narrow categorizations, because
they tend at times, I think, to limitate the meaning of words/expressions
unnecessarily. What I really meant by my message was that Jesus is not
really contemplating ALTERNATIVES but rather dismisses the very possibility
he is mentioning. Theoretically it is possible that the alternative "...
yes, I will ask the Father to save me...", but it is much more probable that
he means something like, "... what shall I say, Father, save me... since I
have come to save the world?... since I am the only way to the Father?...
since I and the Father are one?... etc... no, definitely not..." (I admit
that we have in Romanian such expressions meaning exactly that which I
explained above and I might have been influenced by that. However, the
context of the NT passage supports, I believe, such view).
Vasile STANCU
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Conrad [mailto:cwconrad2 at mac.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 7:33 PM
To: Vasile Stancu
Cc: B-Greek B-Greek
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 12:27 TI EIPW
Vasile, if you want to create this subcategory, I suggest that you
propose it to Dan Wallace, who likes to clutter up the grammar with
subcategories in terms of how one translates particular instances of a
construction into English. For my part, I can't see the use of such
subcategories; as I see it, the subjunctive construction here says
nothing more or less than, "What am I to say?" Then PATER SWSON ME EK
THS hWRAS TAUTHS? simply suggests one alternative; it's not part of
the subjunctive construction.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
On Oct 21, 2008, at 10:42 PM, Vasile Stancu wrote:
> I propose that some nuance be added to the term "deliberative
> subjunctive".
> If my understanding is correct, simply "deliberative" would imply
> something
> like, "What do I say: this or that?" or "How to respond: thus or the
> other
> way round?", whereas in this case, the very alternative which is
> worded is
> already denied before any judgement. It is like when a mother is
> rebuking
> her child after having discovered that he had caught a cat and
> attached old
> cans to its tail and then released it so as to watch the cat running
> away
> scared by the noise, and says, "Now, shall I do to you the same as
> you did
> to the poor cat?" Of course the mother has no intention at all of
> doing
> that. The subjunctive used here is very much like the one in
> question, I
> believe. Let me propose something: "deliberative subjunctive by
> elimination".
>
> Vasile STANCU
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Carl Conrad
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 8:58 PM
> To: javajedi2 at yahoo.com
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 12:27 TI EIPW
>
>
> On Oct 20, 2008, at 1:58 AM, Kenneth Litwak wrote:
>
>> I'm looking at the question, TI EIPW, PATER SWSON ME EK THS (WRAS
>> TAUTHS? As a subjunctive I can think of several ways that one could
>> translate this: what can I say? What should I say? What shall I
>> say? I read one book that said this has to mean "What can I say/"
>> but I don't think the Greek subjunctive is that narrow. What do
>> y'all ((UMEIS) think?
>
> Ken, any one of your suggested versions will do; you could even use
> "What do I say?" or "How to response?" The construction is the so-
> called "deliberative" subjunctive in an independent clause. The
> meaning is not in question; English it however you think best
> expresses the sense of hesitancy or momentary uncertainty.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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