[B-Greek] Titus 1:10-13

rhutchin at aol.com rhutchin at aol.com
Wed Mar 4 14:15:16 EST 2009








I wonder if ELEGCE in v 13 may be taken in the positive sense (perhaps 

in the sense of warn)and refer back to v 5 and those who are to be 

ordained as PRESBUTEROUS.







Following the instructions for appointing the PRESBUTEROUS, Paul 

begins v 10 with, EISIN GAR POLLOI ANUPOTAKTOI..., from which he 

then concludes, DI hHN AITIAN..., in v 13.





Could we take AUTOUS in V 13 to refer back to the PRESBUTEROUS

to be appointed per v 5-9? Does the greek text point, in any way, 

to what Paul has in view without resorting to exegesis.




Roger Hutchinson 


  




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 12:10:58 -0800
From: Elizabeth Kline <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Titus 1:10-13
To: greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <A51764C3-058C-48AA-91E1-133A7948CB3D at earthlink.net>


On Mar 3, 2009, at 5:46 AM, rhutchin at aol.com wrote:

> In Titus 1:10-13, we read:
>
> 10  EISIN GAR POLLOI ANUPOTAKTOI MATAIOLOGOI KAI FRENAPATAI MALIOTA  
> hOI E
K THS PERITOMHS
>
> 11  hOUS DEI EPISTOMIZEIN, hOITIVES hOLOUS OIKOUS ANATREPOUSIN  
> DIDASKONTES hA MH DEI AISCROU KERDOUS CARIN.
>
> 12  EIPEN TIS EX AUTWN IDIOS AUTWN PROFHTHS...
>
> 13  hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS DI hHN AITIAN ELEGCE AUTOIS  
> APOTOMWS...
>
> I have read the commentaries and have some questions.
>
> 1.  In v 12, do we take AUTWN (in both instances) to refer back to  
> the POLL
OI ANUPOTAKTOI and MALIOTA hOI EK THS PERITOMHS.  If not,  
> what is the antecendent?
>
> 2.  Can we read v 12 to be an example of these MATAIOLOGOI are saying?
>
> 3.  In v 13, must  hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS refer only to v 12  
> or can it refer to all that Paul says in v 10-13?
>
> 4.  To whom does Paul refer when he says, ELEGCE AUTOIS APOTOMWS?   
> Does AUTOIS take us back to the POLLOI ANUPOTAKTOI of v 10 as  
> opposed to the Cretians of v 12 (which seems to be what the  
> commentaries say)?  If Titus was to reprove the Cretians (following  
> the commentaries), don?t we have Paul agreeing with the POLLOI  
> ANUPOTAKTOI when he seems to be speaking against them.
>
> Roger Hutchinson


[Deleted because it comes through as garbage in the message I receive.]

TITUS 1:10 EISIN GAR POLLOI [KAI] ANUPOTAKTOI, MATAIOLOGOI KAI  
FRENAPATAI, MALISTA hOI EK THS PERITOMHS,  11 hOUS DEI EPISTOMIZEIN,  
hOITINES hOLOUS OIKOUS ANATREPOUSIN DIDASKONTES hA MH DEI AISCROU  
KERDOUS CARIN.  12 EIPEN TIS EX AUTWN IDIO
S AUTWN PROFHTHS: KRHTES AEI  
YEUSTAI, KAKA QHRIA, GASTERES ARGAI.  13 hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN  
ALHQHS. DI hHN AITIAN ELEGCE AUTOUS APOTOMWS, hINA hUGIAINWSIN EN THi  
PISTEI,  14 MH PROSECONTES IOUDAIKOIS MUQOIS KAI ENTOLAIS ANQRWPWN  
APOSTREFOMENWN THN ALHQEIAN.

There is some referential ambiguity (confusion?)  here. I would  
suggest (tentatively) that the rebuke in v13 address both POLLOI  
ANUPOTAKTOI and those 
influenced by their behavior and/or teaching,  
with the primary focus on on the 'hard core' perpetrators. hOUS in   
hOUS DEI EPISTOMIZEIN in v. 11a along with hOITINES in  hOITINES  
hOLOUS OIKOUS ANATREPOUSIN are coreferential with AUTOUS in v. 13b.

The next step in my analysis is a "long shot" (dubious). In regard to  
hUGIAINWSIN v.13b,  I would suggest (very tentative) that the personal  
reference is not exactly identical with the immediately preceding  
AUTOUS. In other words, the rebuke is primarily directed at the hard  
core group of trouble makers who are perhaps beyond rescue. Paul's  
concern is for the correction and rescue of the whole group including  
both some of the marginal perpetrators and some who are influenced by  
them, while the hard core perpetrators are not expected to change  
their ways. The primary target of the rebuke are not the ones who will  
benefit most from the rebuke. Those who hear the hard core  
perpetrators being rebuked will benefit.


Elizabeth Kline





 











 

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