[B-Greek] My Ideal Greek (Beginning) Grammar

Louis Sorenson llsorenson at hotmail.com
Wed Apr 13 11:03:37 EDT 2011


I've added a discussion of the topic on Schole. Goto to 

http://schole.ning.com/forum/topics/my-ideal-greek-beginning?xg_source=activity

You will have to sign up on Schole to make comments. 

Louis Sorenson

> From: paul.d.nitz at gmail.com
> To: llsorenson at hotmail.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] My Ideal Greek (Beginning) Grammar
> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 16:58:36 +0200
> 
> Smashing!  Brilliant!   Wonderful!
> 
> The topic of Greek primers has come up often enough on B-Greek, but I have 
> not seen anything get to the core of the matter better than Louis Sorenson's 
> post (characteristics of an ideal primer) or offer as much promise as 
> Shirley Rollinson's news (her grammar in progress, written with B-Greek 
> input!).
> 
> I am very much looking forward to hearing reactions to Shirley and your 
> post.
> 
> Just one suggestion... a list-serve is an awkward tool for certain 
> discussions which members might want to a) really drill into and b) take 
> some time before replying.  You know how it works on B-Greek.  The messages 
> come so thick and fast that threads get crossed over and buried too quickly. 
> A Discussion Board tool works much better.  If you haven't used a discussion 
> board, you will find it a joy for extended discussions.
> 
> I wonder if we could try it out just for this particular discussion about an 
> ideal primer?   Would you be willing to post your criteria on a separate 
> board, Louis?
> 
> One of the list members already has a discussion board set up on Stack 
> Exchange.  A previous post about Stack Exchange is found below.
> 
> PD Nitz
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "hoshi411" <hoshi411 at gmail.com>
> To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 6:20 PM
> Subject: [B-Greek] Another Greek Question Forum
> 
> 
> > This may be off topic so no worries if it doesn't make the list.
> >
> > Ever since I started using stack exchange, I've been wishing they had a 
> > Greek forum and now I've figured out how to create one.
> >
> > Anyone who has experienced how fun stack exchange forums are to use will 
> > understand.
> >
> > The proposal needs 50 users to sign up in order to go through.
> >
> > If you are interested in starting a stack exchange greek forum please sign 
> > up
> >
> > http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/29568/ancient-greek
> >
> >
> > - Joshua Robison
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Louis Sorenson" <llsorenson at hotmail.com>
> To: "B-Greek List mail to all" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 1:39 PM
> Subject: [B-Greek] My Ideal Greek (Beginning) Grammar
> 
> 
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I’ve been thinking a lot lately about what my "perfect" Greek first year 
> > grammar would be. Shirley Rollinson's thread about her online grammar 
> > discusses the same topics. The reason there are so many first year 
> > grammars, methinks, is that many teachers feel the ones they use are 
> > inadequate in some way, so they sits themselves down and writes their own. 
> > It's really difficult for a teacher with ideas to teach from another's 
> > textbook without changing a few things. That just the way teaching works. 
> > But with the internet and software applications becoming commonplace, 
> > there is still the need for a modern Koine Greek grammar which uses these 
> > resources (smart phone, online flashcards, etc.) to the max. We now have 
> > video, audio on demand, and very sound information from teachers of Second 
> > Language Acquisition on how people learn and retain a foreign language. 
> > Some of these elements have started creeping their way into Latin and 
> > ancient Greek teaching in the classroom and manuals, and there are several 
> > ancient Greek Grammars which are based on communicative methodology 
> > (Buth's Living Koine, Rioc's Polis, Assimil's le Grec Ancien to some 
> > extent).  But of course, it's hard to communicate with a book, as it does 
> > not talk back to you.
> >
> > So I'm still looking for that comprehensive grammar which teaches a full 
> > first year of Greek and puts it all together in a stylish appealing format 
> > (like Rico or Assimil) that is both portable (Assimil), and electronic 
> > (none out there yet, or are there?) and has the audio resources of Buth 
> > (no Greek grammar has as much audio as Buth's) and is based on a story 
> > (like Hale or Athenaze) and is progressive (like Athenaze). It must 
> > utilize audio, video, songs, and other teaching methods which let a remote 
> > learner, self-learner, or traditional class student use the material.  It 
> > must also use the terminology of modern linguistics in a way which gives 
> > confidence to the student they are understanding language strucytures but 
> > does not make language learning be an academic venture of identifying 
> > forms and structures. It's got to make students forget they are learning 
> > until they have realized (too late) that it has already happened.
> >
> > I'm not in the academic community, but have taught Greek to a number of 
> > people over the last several years using Hale's "Let's Study Greek" (which 
> > is a story-based NT grammar) and incorporating my own active-learning 
> > materials.  I use Mounce's book as a supplement (It has the worst index of 
> > any grammar out there, but my students like it's in-depth coverage in 
> > contrast with Hale's simplicity). But like Shirley Rollinson, I've been 
> > looking for something better to use.
> >
> > I also have to ask myself,  what does an online student need? How does 
> > that differ from and in-class student and how does one best bridge the 
> > disconnect of online learners who are not present in a 'communicative 
> > environment?' So here is my bucket list (just started last week) which 
> > still needs a lot of improvement. TI FRONEIS?  Hopefully my Hotmail client 
> > has not mashed my list below.
> >
> > Louis Sorenson......List as follows:
> >
> >
> > APPROACH / PHILOSOPHY
> > o    Use modern linguistic language terminology: e.g. patient, actor, ktl.
> > o    Focus teaching/learning via the communicative method. Learning 
> > happens when the learner tries to communicate. This makes reading 
> > secondary to writing and hearing secondary to speaking in importance, but 
> > not in order of learning.
> > o    A “Circular” based learning format. (Whole language).
> >   --    This enables words like ἵνα INA + subjunctive to be introduced 
> > early on.
> >   --    Also subjunctive forms like “Let’s Start!”  ἀρχώμεθα, 
> > ἐσθίωμεν..ARXWMETHA ESQIWMEN
> >   --    Stock forms with set phrases are used without having the student 
> > learn their grammatical format. E.g. μὴ γένοιτο! MH GENOITO
> > o    Teaches the reader how to guess at the meaning of words. To be 
> > satisfied with not looking up every word.
> > o    School vocabulary (i.e. the words a student uses in school: book, 
> > desk, table, white-board, pen, eraser, list, etc.) is used in Greek 
> > throughout the book (written in the text, not just used in class).
> > o    Grammatical terminology is put off – An appendix of grammatical terms 
> > is given where such things are explained.  The focus is trying to get the 
> > student to think Greek, not to think about Greek grammar structures.
> > o    English grammatical terms are used instead of Greek (masculine, 
> > feminine, neuter) rather than ἀρσενικος, θηλικος, ουδευτερον ARSENIKOS, 
> > QHLIKOS, OUDETEROS). – but where it makes sense to use Greek terms, those 
> > will also be used.
> >
> > FORMAT
> > o    Small Chapter length. Assimil uses about a 20 minute twice a day 
> > format. This gives the learner a sense of accomplishment. The trend has 
> > been to convert grammars into a 32 lesson (college school year) chapter 
> > format. This makes focusing on a separate structure impossible to do in a 
> > single chapter.
> > o    Many pictures, images and callouts. Historical asides to places, 
> > events, ktl.  E.g. Strabo's tower.  (Have you heard the song Strabo's 
> > Tower is Falling Down)
> > o    Tools for reading (an electronic companion) with pop-up parsing, 
> > pop-up paradigms e.g. for verbs of the same class.
> > o    Have English glosses for all Greek examples (like in Smyth) and 
> > charts
> > o    Teaches the student to learn primary vocabulary and use 
> > sub-vocabulary lists for reading (like in the Readers Greek NT).
> > o    Self-study appropriate – compatible. Answer key
> > o    The running story text has footnotes (like a Readers’ NT)
> >
> > VOCABULARY
> > o    A base vocabulary of 600 words. This is twice the average Greek NT 
> > grammar and what Blaine Ray recommends is needed for learning a second 
> > language.
> > o    Semantic domains are included as part of the vocabulary teaching.
> > o    Word-formation is taught when new vocabulary is introduced (e.g. ways 
> > to form adjectives….-ικος, -ινος, ..-IKOS -INOS.)
> > o    NT/LXX Frequencies are given for Vocabulary
> >
> > GRAMMAR TEACHING AND PROGRESSION
> > o    Superfluity of Examples. Further examples are given (in a drill-down 
> > format (electronic)) when the student wants more examples.
> > o    Significant attention is given to word order and discourse features. 
> > (like Goetchus on PAS) and Runge's book
> > o    The aorist is introduced early as the default.
> > o    Common irregular verbs are introduced early: δίδωμι, τίθημι, ἀφίημι. 
> > βαίνω, γινωσκω DIDWMI, TIQHMI, AFIHMI, BAINW, GINWSKW
> > o    A discussion of the ‘deponent’ issue is given in-depth. The middle 
> > voice is taught in a way to not promote reflexive as the main idea, but 
> > subject-focused
> > o    A transition to Greek thought – word order – it must acclimate the 
> > student to change his thinking patterns.
> >
> > STORY
> > o    Story based. It contains a text which intrigues the reader/student 
> > and captures their attention. You can have several story threads going on 
> > in different places, and flashbacks and forwards to other time events, but 
> > the text revolves around a person (protagonist) with whom the reader 
> > identifies. This enables family structures, relationships, etc. to be 
> > introduced in the opening section, along with names, etc.
> > o    A compelling story: For Koine, set in Israel in the time of Christ 
> > with people who have heard about Jesus, known those Essenes, dealt daily 
> > with Roman occupation, etc. The plot must come to a climax and have 
> > resolution. It would be filled with opinions of people (many 
> > controversial) and their impressions to events (Jesus was nothing but a 
> > trouble-maker)
> > o    The story text is modeled on actual NT or secular Greek passages 
> > and/or adapted where needed. Communication based. This means there are 
> > many dialogues in the story- like the back and forth give and take in 
> > Plato
> > o    A place for the student in the story – this could be in the form of 
> > taking the part of one of the secondary people in any given story. In an 
> > active classroom, they would be asked for their opinion, .to participate 
> > somehow in the conversation.   They would be given several scripts, based 
> > on the plot, from which they could draw on. Alternatively, they could 
> > assume the persona of one of the secondary characters in any given story – 
> > and use their lines.
> > o    The story text is modeled on actual NT or secular Greek passages 
> > and/or adapted where needed.
> > o    The books of Luke/Acts/Epictetus will be the model of Greek text – 
> > when citations of passages are given, those authors will be heavily relied 
> > on.
> > o    Story is historically accurate in regards to dates, culture, etc.
> >
> > AUDIO
> > o    Audio based. All stories have recorded audio. Recorded exercises 
> > (askeseis) like Buth’s and Assimil’s.
> > o    Multiple voices in the audio. Feminine, Masculine, good Greek 
> > pronunciation, bad (e.g. an Egyptian or Persian speaking Greek).  People 
> > like to make fun of mispronunciations like Alcibiades with his lisp.
> > o    All audio is in Buth’s restored Koine pronunciation.
> >
> > EXERCISES
> > o    Contains action-based learning repertoires with activity guides for 
> > teachers of the book: e.g. when learning δίδωμι DIDWMI, there would be a 
> > table with objects the teacher gives and takes objects from the students. 
> > Corresponding worksheets would be available.
> > o    Writing based – heavy on composition. Perhaps have the student write 
> > a diary or summary of each story.
> > o    Askeseis (Exercises) include semantic switch-outs (word replacements) 
> > (This is one of Buths unique strongest features)
> >
> > CO-READINGS AND ACTIVITIES
> > o    Frequent parts of ‘easy’ passages are given as corollary readings.
> > o    Parallel passages (not a verse or phrase) of Scripture to be read 
> > along with story, simplified when needed. This gets people into reading 
> > the actual Greek of the New Testament early on and wets their appetite for 
> > more
> > o    Include songs and an option to solidify patterns and stock phrases.
> > o    Significant LXX allusions, passages, Psalms, etc.
> >
> > RESOURCES
> > o    Has a separate Syntax (or utilizes an existing simple syntax). This 
> > could be used and a reference guide – the order follows Smyth’s order to 
> > prepare them for his book.
> > o    Has a separate Table of Forms that is complete:
> >          --    This could be used and a reference guide
> >          --    The order follows Smyth’s order to prepare them for his 
> > book.
> >          --    The verb chart and table of forms is color-tabbed for easy 
> > reference
> >          --    An index exists at the beginning of the verb chart for the 
> > different types (or Buth's unique format of listing all present tense 
> > meaning verbs side-by-side is utilized) I cannot wait for his complete 
> > list of verbs!
> >          --    Koine forms (e.g. for εἰμί) would be given with Attic forms 
> > being shown in the notes for alternative forms.
> > o    Cross-references are given to Smyth, Funk, Basics of Biblical Greek 
> > throughout the grammar.  (any other standard references needed?)
> > o    Has an appendix of Grammatical terminology
> > o    Has a teacher's handbook with instructions on each lesson on how to 
> > use active learning methods.
> > o    Has a student's handbook for the remote learner (or electronic guide) 
> > and section on how to learn with the Communicative approach
> >
> >
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> > B-Greek mailing list
> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> > 
> 
 		 	   		  


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