Eph. 4:9 again

From: Eric Weiss (eweiss@acf.dhhs.gov)
Date: Sun Oct 29 1995 - 05:11:17 EST

>From: Eric Weiss <eweiss@acf.dhhs.gov>
  i.e., "ME"
>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 12:51:54 -24000
>Subject: Eph 4:9 "Lower parts of the earth"

>If, as Young and Zerwick claim, it should be translated "into
>the lower parts, that is, the earth," rather than referring to
>Christ's descent into the underworld, 1) who or what are the
>captives Christ led (4:8), and 2) how is He to fill all things
>(4:10) if He doesn't also descend into the lower parts of the
>earth (cf. Phil. 2:10)?

Thank you all for your responses on this, though I noted that most of the
responses were about what is (or whether this is) an "epexegetic genitive" or
"genitive of apposition" and only occasionally touched on the above part of
my message. I did appreciate the lengthy responses about what Paul may have
meant by this in the context of his other statements related to Christ
filling all things, being in authority over all things, etc.
Our computers were down the last few days, so I may not have gotten all the
responses. WERE THERE OR ARE THERE other comments on or responses to my
questions 1) and 2) above? It seems to me that this phrase ("lower parts of
the earth") must be understood in the context of the "captives" and who/what
they are, and my understanding of the "captives"--either the righteous dead
or the spiritual powers of the underworld--would support the traditional
understanding that He went into the lower parts of the earth, i.e.,
sheol/hades. (Again, maybe Lincoln's discussion in his commentary addresses
this, and I hope to track down a copy soon.)

* * *

ALSO (to respond to a post referencing Wallace's grammar): Last week the
guys at the DTS bookstore told me that MARCH 1996 (first it was August 95,
then November 95, then December 95) is now the expected date of Dan Wallace's
grammar. Xerox copies of the first half (nouns, adjectives, etc.) are
available and are being used by the 2nd year Greek students at DTS. No
drafts of the second half (verbs, participles, etc.) are for sale. With no
disrespect to Dr. Wallace intended (I fully understand why deadlines and
desired publication dates are sometimes missed), maybe Zondervan should
change the title of his book to "Wallace 96."

(I know they already changed the title to BEYOND THE BASICS or something
similar to the title of Mounce's book, which is the first volume in this

* * *

At the risk of adding fuel to a finally-dying fire, it seems to me that those
who are cessationists with regard to the spiritual gifts are actually
"liberals" in this regard (though they usually consider themselves to be
theological conservatives), whereas those who believe things should continue
as they were in the beginning of the church are the true "conservatives" in
this area of theology. Maybe what one means by "liberal" and "conservative"
is in the eye of the belabeler. But perhaps my biases are showing ....

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