Re: John 15:4 MEINATE EN EMOI?

Date: Fri Feb 28 1997 - 11:55:13 EST

At 7:43 PM -0600 2/27/97, Jonathan Robie wrote:
>>Thu, 27 Feb 97 16:07:44 MST
>>> I need some discussion on the issue of the meaning of EN (a person). I
>>> overheard a discussion on the use of EN (a person) in John 15:4a
>>> recently. This is not one of my areas of focus so I am not current
>>> on the issues involved; but I take the "EN" of John 14:4 as a Dative
>>> of Association or Unity due to the 15:4b reference to the branches
>>> remaining EN the vine (association).

>Jonathan Robie wrote:
>>EN+dative means "in". I think it is easiest to think of the dative
>>as part of the EN, but you could probably think of it as a locative
>>dative, which expresses place and time. In this case, it would be
>>the dative of place.

Carl Conrad wrote:
>I'd agree that one ought not to see this EN EMOI as a comitative dative
>but rather as an extension of the locative dative to personal use, and I
>think Jonathan is quite right in understanding this as referring to
>mystical communion of believers with Christ.
>It's worth looking at what Raymond Brown has to say on MENW (and other
>verbs too, for that matter) in the appendix to the second volume of his
>Anchor commentary on John's gospel.
> I think its worth noting, moreover, that the Johannine usage in chapter
>15 and in the" Farewell Discourses" generally, is also like Paul's EN
>CRISTWi in emphasizing the CORPORATE nature of the bond between believers
>and Christ--not a personal bond; when Paul uses the term in letters, he
>seems normally to be speaking of the corporate relationship that he shares
>with other believers.

Thank you for the reference to Raymond Brown. I have his volumes at home
and will research what he wrote in his first volume. I am aware of what you
call the 'corporate' unity in the "Farewell Discourses," which does make me
think of a dative of Unity even in non-corporate contexts, although as I
see, this is debated.

So as to be well-informed of both sides of this question, what scholarly
references can someone recommend where the EN + a person is something other
than a mystical EN?


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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:00:56 -0600
To: Jonathan Robie <>
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <>
Subject: Re: John 15:4 MEINATE EN EMOI?

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