From: roseann (roseann@Intellisys.net)
Date: Tue Feb 22 2000 - 21:39:43 EST
I have a question about the word TELEION. How could the point in time
spoken about as you comment, be the ESCATON or PAROUSIA when that would
contradict the abiding principles/qualities of Faith, Hope and Love which go
on *beyond the TELEION* (whatever that is)? IOW: I see ceasing qualities
and abiding qualities being discussed in this context - the ceasing
qualities being prophecies, tongues, etc., and the abiding qualities being
faith, hope and love. The ceasing qualities stop at the TELEION but faith
and hope would certainly continue until the PAROUSIA (AGAPE goes on beyond
time and into eternity - (vs. 13). I agree with your meaning of TELEION
(full grown, mature) but not on the time frame when that maturity occurs
because it seems clear that the completion of written revelation is the time
rather than the ESCATON/PAROUSIA. I say that because Faith, Hope and Love
must go BEYOND the TELEION. I realize what I'm saying may be more theology
than translation, but doesn't translation have some relation to
Thomas St. Church of Christ
>I am pretty much in agreement with George (i.e. with "Polycarp" on the way
>TELEIOS/TELEION are being used in 1 Corinthians 13--that the fundamental
>conception involved in vss. 9-10 is "mature" (or I might even say "ripe")
>and that I rather think the point in time or development referred to in vs.
>10 is the ESCATON or PAROUSIA, which Paul often enough seems to refer to in
>terms of a full-grown harvest (as did Jesus, for that matter). Certainly
>the immediate context in 1 Cor 13 points to the antithesis of childhood and
>adulthood, and I think one ought to see one other polarity in EK MEROUS and
>TELEION: "partial" and "complete". Of course there is little danger (or
>hope) that the end-result of this discussion will be a full-blown (TELEION)
>consensus on the meaning of TELEIOS/ON.
>At 6:23 PM -0500 2/22/00, Polycarp66@aol.com wrote:
>>This is a line inserted to avoid the problem of posts not being sent when
>>first line is the same. Sorry about inadvertently sending a reply that
>>hadn't even been started. I got "click-happy" when the system was slow.
>>In a message dated 2/22/2000 4:38:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
>><< "But whenever should come the 'perfect,' the 'from part' is destroyed."
>> I have heard several explanations for this (from the completion of the
>> canon to the Second Coming), but I think there may be something more in
>> word TELEIOS than we acknowledge here.
>>The powers that be in this group ordain that we eschew the discussion of
>>theology and limit our discussion to the Greek -- generally, and here in
>>particular, I concur. Having said that there is something which can be
>>concerning the use of TELEI* in this letter.
>>2.6 SOFIAN DE LALOUMEN EN TOIS TELEIOS
>> We speak wisdom among the mature
>>14.1 ADELFOI, MH PAIDIA GINESQE TAIS FRESIN ALLA THi KAKIAi NHPIAZETE,
>>DE FRESIN TELEIOI GINESQE.
>> Brothers, don't be children in understanding. Instead be infants
>>evil but be mature in understanding.
>>In these the idea is that of maturity. This is slightly different in the
>>passage under consideration -- but not much. I think he builds on this
>>concept. He contrasts the "complete" with
>>PROFHTEIAI -- KATARGHQHSONTAI
>>GLWSSAI -- PAUSONTAI
>>GNWSIS -- KATARGHQHSETAI
>>My guess would be that this was in opposition to some Gnostic tendencies
>>being exhibited. When was this to occur? I would say that it would be at
>>the expected parousia.
>>1.7 WSTE hUMAS MH hUSTEREISQAI EN MHDENI CARISMATI APEKDECOMENOUS THN
>>APOKALUYIN TOU KURIOU hHMWN IHSOU CRISTOU
>>. . . so that you might not be lacking in any gift as we await the
>>of out Lord Jesus Christ.
>>Much of the early church seemed to expect to still be alive when the
>Carl W. Conrad
>Department of Classics/Washington University
>One Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018
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