Re: Ok, what about grape juice (not OINOS)

Date: Tue Jun 13 2000 - 02:29:13 EDT

In a message dated 6/12/2000 10:21:51 PM Central Standard Time, writes:

 Being a good Jew (though some would say my belief in Jesus no longer allows
 me to use that appellation), I have long maintained (perhaps tongue in
 cheek) that the reason Peter and James and John fell asleep in the Garden
 of Gethsemane was because of the ALCOHOLIC wine they drank during the "last
 supper." It was a tradition that one was supposed to drink all the cups at
 the Passover seder, to get "giddy," in fact, for joy at the celebration of
 the Exodus. Now, this rabbinical injunction may have post-dated Jesus's
 time, and I believe J. Jeremias makes the case in THE EUCHARISTIC WORDS OF
 JESUS that Jesus abstained from both food and drink during the "last
 supper," so "perhaps" Jesus didn't let alcohol touch His lips that night
 (but if He NEVER drank, why would He be accused of being a "wine-drinker" -
 Luke 7:34?), but I do not doubt that my guess as to why the disciples slept
 has some merit.

This, of course, presumes that one take the account as being historical. If
it should be, I have no doubt that you must be at least partly correct that
the relaxing effects of the wine would have entered into the picture. As
regards a previous comment that

<<Now that might surprise you, but not me. Wine was mixed with water, even
in the first century, and eastern churches, as well as the Roman Church,
still follow this practice in communion. Perhaps this is what was meant by
OINARION, poor or weak wine.>>

The Episcopal Church (and the Anglican Communion in general) also mix the
wine with water. This is stated to be a representation of the statement in
the crucifiction account that blood and water flowed from the side of Christ
when he was pierced. Personally, I think it is simply based on the ancient
custom of mixing the wine with water. Nevertheless, no matter how you cut
it the OINOS was alcoholic.

Are we perhaps getting a bit removed from Greek?


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