[B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
Beata Urbanek
beata.urbanek at op.pl
Sat Mar 19 11:42:39 EDT 2011
Thank you, George.
Maybe it was my oversimplification - quoting my notes and not the actual commentary. It is I.H. Marshall, who says: hOS is used to append theological statements in 4:10; Tit 2:14 (Christ); cf. 1 Tim 3:16 where there is no ancetedent. The effect is causal: 'because he wishes...'
Beata Urbanek
----- Original Message -----
From: George F Somsel
To: Beata Urbanek ; BG
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
I would say that whoever wishes to understand ὅς hOS as having a causal meaning needs to provide some proof that such can indeed be the case -- which I don't think is possible. Note the sentence without the verse number to muck things up.
τοῦτο καλὸν καὶ ἀπόδεκτον ἐνώπιον τοῦ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν θεοῦ, ὃς πάντος ἀνθρώπους ...
TOUTO KALON KAI APODEKTON ENWPION TOU SWTHROS hHMWN QEOU, hOS PANTOS ANQRWPOUS ...
Unless your unnamed commentator can find some proof of the use of ὅς hOS in a causative sense (which I seriously doubt he will be able) and can then further show that the use here fits his scheme, it appears that the usage here is the common, ordinary, everyday, meat-and-potatos relative which ties the following clause back to its antecedent.
As regards whether the position of πάντος ἀνθρώπους PANTOS ANQRWPOUS is emphatic, I would say that may be the case, but discourse linguistics is not my field. I think Steve Runge would be better able to answer that. I tried finding some answer in his book, but it would appear that he doesn't feel that it is such an easy question to answer so that it requires some considerable discussion. He speaks of the normal information flow and old information / new information which whole matter would take a bit more time to wade through than I care to spend to answer one question so that it is better for him to respond personally. I would note, however that, going back to the beginning of the chapter, the discussion was concerning praying for all men
Παρακαλῶ οὖν πρῶτον πάντων ποιεῖσθαι δεήσεις προσευχὰς ἐντεύξεις εὐχαριστίας ** ὑπὲρ πάντων ἀνθρώπων **
PARAKALW OUN PRWTON PANTWN POIEISQAI DEHSIS PROSEUXAS ENTEUCEIS EUXARISTIAS ** hUPER PANTWN ANQRWPWN **
Thus, while it may be the case that there is some prominence in its position, I somewhat doubt that since it is not any new information and simply resumes the discussion of prayer for all men on the basis of (hmm--am I introducing a causal idea ?) the fact that God wishes all men to be saved. Whatever Steve says regarding this, listen to him since that's his specialty.
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
To: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>; BG <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sat, March 19, 2011 7:19:56 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
Plus another question:)
One of the commentators says that hOS has a causal meaning: "because He wants all people to be saved". I cannot find such meaning of this pronoun.
Beata Urbanek
> Thanks to all who responded.
>
> The text again:
> 4. ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν.
> 4. hOS PANTAS ANQWRWPOUS QELEI SWQHNAI KAI EIS EPIGNQSIN ALHQEIAS ELQEIN
>
> I have another question.
> Is the position of πάντας ἀνθρώπους at the beginning of the v. 4 emphatic? Should the "normal" word order be:
> ὃς θέλει σωθῆναι πάντας ἀνθρώπους.
> hOS QELEI SWQHNAI PANTAS ANQWRWPOUS
>
> Beata Urbanek
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
> To: "Shirley Rollinson" <rollinsondr at yahoo.com>; "BG" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 8:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>
>
>> After having looked at all the BOULOMAIs in the NT, I get the impression that it
>> usually refers to the following scenario: I have thought about the situation, I
>> have come to a decision or made a plan, and therefore: this is what I want you
>> to do or this is what I want should happen.
>> If more than one person is involved, the decision would be a result of that
>> consultation, but in most cases the person consults within him- or herself.
>>
>> In 2 Pet 3:9 we read: μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν
>> χωρῆσαι
>> MH BOULOMENOS TINAS APOLESQAI ALLA PANTAS EIS METANOIAN CWRHSAI
>>
>> (God) is not planning (does not want) for anyone to be destroyed but for all to
>> make room for repentance.
>>
>> In 1 Tim 2:4 God would wish (QELEI) for all people to be saved and come to fully
>> know the truth.
>>
>> But he also knows that this will not happen, even though he has put everything
>> in place for it to happen as v. 5 explains: He has sent Jesus Christ as the
>> mediator, but there is only one God. If people will not believe and acknowledge
>> this truth, they will not be saved.
>>
>> Although there is considerable overlap between the words, I do believe that some
>> distinction is present. It is akin to, but not quite the same as, the difference
>> between English "want" and "wish".
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shirley Rollinson" <rollinsondr at yahoo.com>
>> To: <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
>> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: 9. marts 2011 02:14
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>>
>>
>> Dear Beata,
>> Could it be that THELW qelw relates to THELHMA qelhma - what an individual
>> wishes or wants
>> and that BOULOMAI boulomai relates to BOULH boulh - what a council decides
>> together?
>>
>> thank you
>> Shirley Rollinson
>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>> 9. Re: 1 Timothy 2:4-5 (Beata Urbanek)
>>
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