[B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Sat Mar 19 11:56:41 EDT 2011
Ah, yes. I could agree with that. It is also much the same as the passage to
which "Match" referred in Smyth.
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
________________________________
From: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; BG <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sat, March 19, 2011 8:42:39 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
Thank you, George.
Maybe it was my oversimplification - quoting my notes and not the actual
commentary. It is I.H. Marshall, who says: hOS is used to append theological
statements in 4:10; Tit 2:14 (Christ); cf. 1 Tim 3:16 where there is no
ancetedent. The effect is causal: 'because he wishes...'
Beata Urbanek
----- Original Message -----
>From: George F Somsel
>To: Beata Urbanek ; BG
>Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 4:07 PM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>
>
>I would say that whoever wishes to understand ὅς hOS as having a causal
>meaning needs to provide some proof that such can indeed be the case -- which I
>don't think is possible. Note the sentence without the verse number to muck
>things up.
>
>τοῦτο καλὸν καὶ ἀπόδεκτον ἐνώπιον τοῦ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν θεοῦ,
>ὃς πάντος ἀνθρώπους ...
>TOUTO KALON KAI APODEKTON ENWPION TOU SWTHROS hHMWN QEOU, hOS PANTOS ANQRWPOUS
>...
>
>Unless your unnamed commentator can find some proof of the use of ὅς hOS in a
>causative sense (which I seriously doubt he will be able) and can then further
>show that the use here fits his scheme, it appears that the usage here is the
>common, ordinary, everyday, meat-and-potatos relative which ties the following
>clause back to its antecedent.
>
>As regards whether the position of πάντος ἀνθρώπους PANTOS ANQRWPOUS is
>emphatic, I would say that may be the case, but discourse linguistics is not my
>field. I think Steve Runge would be better able to answer that. I tried
>finding some answer in his book, but it would appear that he doesn't feel that
>it is such an easy question to answer so that it requires some considerable
>discussion. He speaks of the normal information flow and old information / new
>information which whole matter would take a bit more time to wade through than I
>care to spend to answer one question so that it is better for him to respond
>personally. I would note, however that, going back to the beginning of the
>chapter, the discussion was concerning praying for all men
>
>Παρακαλῶ οὖν πρῶτον πάντων ποιεῖσθαι δεήσεις προσευχὰς ἐντεύξεις εὐχαριστίας **
>ὑπὲρ πάντων ἀνθρώπων ** PARAKALW OUN PRWTON PANTWN POIEISQAI DEHSIS PROSEUXAS
>ENTEUCEIS EUXARISTIAS ** hUPER PANTWN ANQRWPWN **
>
>Thus, while it may be the case that there is some prominence in its position, I
>somewhat doubt that since it is not any new information and simply resumes the
>discussion of prayer for all men on the basis of (hmm--am I introducing a causal
>idea ?) the fact that God wishes all men to be saved. Whatever Steve says
>regarding this, listen to him since that's his specialty.
>
>george
>gfsomsel
>
>
>… search for truth, hear truth,
>learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>defend the truth till death.
>
>
>- Jan Hus
>_________
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
>To: Beata Urbanek <beata.urbanek at op.pl>; BG <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Sent: Sat, March 19, 2011 7:19:56 AM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>
>Plus another question:)
>
>One of the commentators says that hOS has a causal meaning: "because He wants
>all people to be saved". I cannot find such meaning of this pronoun.
>
>Beata Urbanek
>
>> Thanks to all who responded.
>>
>> The text again:
>> 4. ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν.
>> 4. hOS PANTAS ANQWRWPOUS QELEI SWQHNAI KAI EIS EPIGNQSIN ALHQEIAS ELQEIN
>>
>> I have another question.
>> Is the position of πάντας ἀνθρώπους at the beginning of the v. 4 emphatic?
>>Should the "normal" word order be:
>> ὃς θέλει σωθῆναι πάντας ἀνθρώπους.
>> hOS QELEI SWQHNAI PANTAS ANQWRWPOUS
>>
>> Beata Urbanek
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
>> To: "Shirley Rollinson" <rollinsondr at yahoo.com>; "BG"
>><b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 8:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>>
>>
>>> After having looked at all the BOULOMAIs in the NT, I get the impression that
>>>it
>>> usually refers to the following scenario: I have thought about the situation,
>>I
>>> have come to a decision or made a plan, and therefore: this is what I want
>you
>>> to do or this is what I want should happen.
>>> If more than one person is involved, the decision would be a result of that
>>> consultation, but in most cases the person consults within him- or herself.
>>>
>>> In 2 Pet 3:9 we read: μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς
μετάνοιαν
>>> χωρῆσαι
>>> MH BOULOMENOS TINAS APOLESQAI ALLA PANTAS EIS METANOIAN CWRHSAI
>>>
>>> (God) is not planning (does not want) for anyone to be destroyed but for all
>>to
>>> make room for repentance.
>>>
>>> In 1 Tim 2:4 God would wish (QELEI) for all people to be saved and come to
>>>fully
>>> know the truth.
>>>
>>> But he also knows that this will not happen, even though he has put
>everything
>>> in place for it to happen as v. 5 explains: He has sent Jesus Christ as the
>>> mediator, but there is only one God. If people will not believe and
>>acknowledge
>>> this truth, they will not be saved.
>>>
>>> Although there is considerable overlap between the words, I do believe that
>>>some
>>> distinction is present. It is akin to, but not quite the same as, the
>>>difference
>>> between English "want" and "wish".
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shirley Rollinson"
><rollinsondr at yahoo.com>
>>> To: <beata.urbanek at op.pl>
>>> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Sent: 9. marts 2011 02:14
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:4-5
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Beata,
>>> Could it be that THELW qelw relates to THELHMA qelhma - what an individual
>>> wishes or wants
>>> and that BOULOMAI boulomai relates to BOULH boulh - what a council decides
>>> together?
>>>
>>> thank you
>>> Shirley Rollinson
>>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>> 9. Re: 1 Timothy 2:4-5 (Beata Urbanek)
>>>
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>>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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>>
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>
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