Dear Bhagwathas, As i know about Iskcon, they follow Pancharathra aghama vidhi in doing deity worship at temples. Only intiated brahmins are allowed to do arthi, deity decorations etc. and not other devottees who are not given brahmin initiation.Entry to the temple room is restricted only to the brahmin initiated devottees.I think this can clarify why they give brahmin initiation to the selected devottees who are very sincere,pure and honest in devotional service. Krishna dasee Vedavalli Ranganathan. > > Thanks for your reply, of course I understand > that you too hold > Gaudiyas in high respect. Let me make it clear that > I in no way am > trying to find fault with you or others, but I > merely feel that > their sampradaayam deserved defending on this issue > (although > perhaps it is presumptuous of me to do so!). Maybe > I have a soft > spot for their 'liberal values' as you call them due > to being > brought up in the UK, but hopefully I will try and > make my point > without bias. > > Coming to your point on women and > yagnyopaveetam: I am fearful > of this descending into the usual "why women > shouldn't chant vedas" > debate but since you asked I am suggesting some > references. I don't > know if this is the exact pramANam ISKCON use but > it's a guess. > > Anyone familiar with the major upanishads will > know of the > figures of Gargi and Maitreyi. These women were > instrumental in > bringing about the existence of the respective > upanishads they are > in, they asked the very questions that needed to be > answered. > > As a result this would obviously imply that > since these women > were the first to utter these veda mantras, perhaps > they would claim > that there cannot be a blanket ban on women chanting > the Vedas. > Like I said, I don't know their pramaaNam, but this > is my guess. > Also you may be able to find articles on "Women and > the Vaidika > Matham" or some similar title by Sriman Sadagopan > Swami on the > bhakti list archives, in which he even gives an > account in the Vedas > of women performing yagnyas. In this article, the > 'rishikas' > (female rishis) responsible for receiving the > revelation of certain > Veda mantras are also discussed - again implying > that women would > have chanted these mantras (However, I do not take > this to presume > that Sriman Sadagopin Swami's views agree with > ISCKON's, it would be > presumptuous of me to make such a guess). If ISCKON > wanted to use > the above as a shastraic justification, I think this > is very > convincing (although as with everything, needs to be > discussed by > the acharyas of the respective mathams in depth). > > Again your statement "why should they give > brahmana initiation to > everyone" that troubles me somewhat, I think I went > into some detail > in my previous email describing that they most > certainly do not give > it to *everyone*. Those who get it are very > strictly vetted and > they are made to show their committment to living > the vedic life. > Which is much more than can be said for today's > birth brahmin > community, as a whole. I certainly know relatives > who got rid of > their 'pooNal' as soon as they were sure no-one was > looking! I am > sure many of you can relate similar experiences. > > In the ISKCON community, I think it is only the > people who do > deity worship that are given brahmana initiation. > Again like I > said, the ones who are fully prepared to live the > *strict* Vedic > lifestyle. Most lay devotees do not get brahmana > initiation, and > the only mantra they will chant is the Hare Krishna > mantra. In fact > the Gaudiya matha are so good at safeguarding Vedas > only to those > with brahmana initiation that many lay devotees > don't even know any > quotes from the Vedas!!! > > It seems to me your worry is with the idea that > they give > brahmana initiation to any non-Indian/brahmin jaati > people *at > all*. Well, I have seen their pramANam for this: > take a look at the > Satyakaama Jabala episode in Chaandogya upanishad > (what more > authority do they need?) and the Vajrasuchika > upanishad. In the > former, Satyakama Jabala, though of questionable > parentage, was > given upanayanam and studied the Vedic wisdom with > his teacher. > Therefore, ISCKON may cite this as proving that > brahmaNa status > isn't only by birth. Again, I am not saying this is > my view (I > haven't made my mind up yet!) but I am saying - > there are certainly > arguments to support the ISCKON view. > > This is what I mean by a firm shastraic footing - > I don't think > we can claim that the Gaudiyas don't have this > shastraic backing. I > think we need to be careful that our cultural > upbringing doesn't get > projected onto our expectations of what we think > shaastras *should* > say. Needless to say, understanding the Vedas and > shaastras is a > complex issue and needs to be done with the help of > Vedic scholars > and achaaryas themselves - but let us not presume > that ISCKON > doesn't have any Vedic scholars of its own - do we > know they don't > for sure? > > If you are referring to the dharmashaastra > injunctions saying > only birth-dvijas and men should chant Vedas - ok > then, once every > one of us birth brahmins is actually keeping every > single rule of > every dharmashaastra (I bet less than 1% of actual > birth brahmins > are even getting close to succeeding in this), then > I will agree > that we are in a position to criticise the ISCKON > sampradaayam on > this. But not until then. > > Again I submit this with the utmost respect for > yourself and the > other learned members and hope that it is taken in > the spirit of > enquiry and debate, please forgive me if any offence > is caused. > > sarvAparAdhAn kShamasva > namO naaraayaNaaya > aaNDaaL tiruvaDigalE sharaNam > > with praNaamams, > Ranjan > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam http://www.vedics.net Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ramanuja/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ramanuja-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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