Dear Sri Kidambi Soundararajan, Thanks for your reply, of course I understand that you too hold Gaudiyas in high respect. Let me make it clear that I in no way am trying to find fault with you or others, but I merely feel that their sampradaayam deserved defending on this issue (although perhaps it is presumptuous of me to do so!). Maybe I have a soft spot for their 'liberal values' as you call them due to being brought up in the UK, but hopefully I will try and make my point without bias. Coming to your point on women and yagnyopaveetam: I am fearful of this descending into the usual "why women shouldn't chant vedas" debate but since you asked I am suggesting some references. I don't know if this is the exact pramANam ISKCON use but it's a guess. Anyone familiar with the major upanishads will know of the figures of Gargi and Maitreyi. These women were instrumental in bringing about the existence of the respective upanishads they are in, they asked the very questions that needed to be answered. As a result this would obviously imply that since these women were the first to utter these veda mantras, perhaps they would claim that there cannot be a blanket ban on women chanting the Vedas. Like I said, I don't know their pramaaNam, but this is my guess. Also you may be able to find articles on "Women and the Vaidika Matham" or some similar title by Sriman Sadagopan Swami on the bhakti list archives, in which he even gives an account in the Vedas of women performing yagnyas. In this article, the 'rishikas' (female rishis) responsible for receiving the revelation of certain Veda mantras are also discussed - again implying that women would have chanted these mantras (However, I do not take this to presume that Sriman Sadagopin Swami's views agree with ISCKON's, it would be presumptuous of me to make such a guess). If ISCKON wanted to use the above as a shastraic justification, I think this is very convincing (although as with everything, needs to be discussed by the acharyas of the respective mathams in depth). Again your statement "why should they give brahmana initiation to everyone" that troubles me somewhat, I think I went into some detail in my previous email describing that they most certainly do not give it to *everyone*. Those who get it are very strictly vetted and they are made to show their committment to living the vedic life. Which is much more than can be said for today's birth brahmin community, as a whole. I certainly know relatives who got rid of their 'pooNal' as soon as they were sure no-one was looking! I am sure many of you can relate similar experiences. In the ISKCON community, I think it is only the people who do deity worship that are given brahmana initiation. Again like I said, the ones who are fully prepared to live the *strict* Vedic lifestyle. Most lay devotees do not get brahmana initiation, and the only mantra they will chant is the Hare Krishna mantra. In fact the Gaudiya matha are so good at safeguarding Vedas only to those with brahmana initiation that many lay devotees don't even know any quotes from the Vedas!!! It seems to me your worry is with the idea that they give brahmana initiation to any non-Indian/brahmin jaati people *at all*. Well, I have seen their pramANam for this: take a look at the Satyakaama Jabala episode in Chaandogya upanishad (what more authority do they need?) and the Vajrasuchika upanishad. In the former, Satyakama Jabala, though of questionable parentage, was given upanayanam and studied the Vedic wisdom with his teacher. Therefore, ISCKON may cite this as proving that brahmaNa status isn't only by birth. Again, I am not saying this is my view (I haven't made my mind up yet!) but I am saying - there are certainly arguments to support the ISCKON view. This is what I mean by a firm shastraic footing - I don't think we can claim that the Gaudiyas don't have this shastraic backing. I think we need to be careful that our cultural upbringing doesn't get projected onto our expectations of what we think shaastras *should* say. Needless to say, understanding the Vedas and shaastras is a complex issue and needs to be done with the help of Vedic scholars and achaaryas themselves - but let us not presume that ISCKON doesn't have any Vedic scholars of its own - do we know they don't for sure? If you are referring to the dharmashaastra injunctions saying only birth-dvijas and men should chant Vedas - ok then, once every one of us birth brahmins is actually keeping every single rule of every dharmashaastra (I bet less than 1% of actual birth brahmins are even getting close to succeeding in this), then I will agree that we are in a position to criticise the ISCKON sampradaayam on this. But not until then. Again I submit this with the utmost respect for yourself and the other learned members and hope that it is taken in the spirit of enquiry and debate, please forgive me if any offence is caused. sarvAparAdhAn kShamasva namO naaraayaNaaya aaNDaaL tiruvaDigalE sharaNam with praNaamams, Ranjan Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam http://www.vedics.net Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ramanuja/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ramanuja-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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