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Ramanuja List Archive: Message 00082 Jan 2006

 
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Dear Sri Kidambi Soundararajan,

     Thanks for your reply, of course I understand that you too hold 
Gaudiyas in high respect.  Let me make it clear that I in no way am 
trying to find fault with you or others, but I merely feel that 
their sampradaayam deserved defending on this issue (although 
perhaps it is presumptuous of me to do so!).  Maybe I have a soft 
spot for their 'liberal values' as you call them due to being 
brought up in the UK, but hopefully I will try and make my point 
without bias.

     Coming to your point on women and yagnyopaveetam: I am fearful 
of this descending into the usual "why women shouldn't chant vedas" 
debate but since you asked I am suggesting some references.  I don't 
know if this is the exact pramANam ISKCON use but it's a guess.

    Anyone familiar with the major upanishads will know of the 
figures of Gargi and Maitreyi.  These women were instrumental in 
bringing about the existence of the respective upanishads they are 
in, they asked the very questions that needed to be answered.

     As a result this would obviously imply that since these women 
were the first to utter these veda mantras, perhaps they would claim 
that there cannot be a blanket ban on women chanting the Vedas.  
Like I said, I don't know their pramaaNam, but this is my guess.  
Also you may be able to find articles on "Women and the Vaidika 
Matham" or some similar title by Sriman Sadagopan Swami on the 
bhakti list archives, in which he even gives an account in the Vedas 
of women performing yagnyas.  In this article, the 'rishikas' 
(female rishis) responsible for receiving the revelation of certain 
Veda mantras are also discussed - again implying that women would 
have chanted these mantras (However, I do not take this to presume 
that Sriman Sadagopin Swami's views agree with ISCKON's, it would be 
presumptuous of me to make such a guess).  If ISCKON wanted to use 
the above as a shastraic justification, I think this is very 
convincing (although as with everything, needs to be discussed by 
the acharyas of the respective mathams in depth).

   Again your statement "why should they give brahmana initiation to 
everyone" that troubles me somewhat, I think I went into some detail 
in my previous email describing that they most certainly do not give 
it to *everyone*.  Those who get it are very strictly vetted and 
they are made to show their committment to living the vedic life.  
Which is much more than can be said for today's birth brahmin 
community, as a whole.  I certainly know relatives who got rid of 
their 'pooNal' as soon as they were sure no-one was looking!  I am 
sure many of you can relate similar experiences.  

   In the ISKCON community, I think it is only the people who do 
deity worship that are given brahmana initiation.  Again like I 
said, the ones who are fully prepared to live the *strict* Vedic 
lifestyle.  Most lay devotees do not get brahmana initiation, and 
the only mantra they will chant is the Hare Krishna mantra.  In fact 
the Gaudiya matha are so good at safeguarding Vedas only to those 
with brahmana initiation that many lay devotees don't even know any 
quotes from the Vedas!!!

   It seems to me your worry is with the idea that they give 
brahmana initiation to any non-Indian/brahmin jaati people *at 
all*.  Well, I have seen their pramANam for this: take a look at the 
Satyakaama Jabala episode in Chaandogya upanishad (what more 
authority do they need?) and the Vajrasuchika upanishad. In the 
former, Satyakama Jabala, though of questionable parentage, was 
given upanayanam and studied the Vedic wisdom with his teacher.  
Therefore, ISCKON may cite this as proving that brahmaNa status 
isn't only by birth.  Again, I am not saying this is my view (I 
haven't made my mind up yet!) but I am saying - there are certainly 
arguments to support the ISCKON view.

   This is what I mean by a firm shastraic footing - I don't think 
we can claim that the Gaudiyas don't have this shastraic backing.  I 
think we need to be careful that our cultural upbringing doesn't get 
projected onto our expectations of what we think shaastras *should* 
say.  Needless to say, understanding the Vedas and shaastras is a 
complex issue and needs to be done with the help of Vedic scholars 
and achaaryas themselves - but let us not presume that ISCKON 
doesn't have any Vedic scholars of its own - do we know they don't 
for sure?

   If you are referring to the dharmashaastra injunctions saying 
only birth-dvijas and men should chant Vedas - ok then, once every 
one of us birth brahmins is actually keeping every single rule of 
every dharmashaastra (I bet less than 1% of actual birth brahmins 
are even getting close to succeeding in this), then I will agree 
that we are in a position to criticise the ISCKON sampradaayam on 
this.  But not until then.

Again I submit this with the utmost respect for yourself and the 
other learned members and hope that it is taken in the spirit of 
enquiry and debate, please forgive me if any offence is caused.

sarvAparAdhAn kShamasva
namO naaraayaNaaya
aaNDaaL tiruvaDigalE sharaNam

with praNaamams,
Ranjan









Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam 
http://www.vedics.net

 
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