From: B. Ward Powers (email@example.com)
Date: Wed Jun 14 2000 - 13:45:57 EDT
<x-flowed>At 01:14 AM 000613 +0100, Ben Crick wrote:
>On Mon 12 Jun 2000 (23:19:12), firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
> > What would we call OINOS if it were squeezed on Monday and sipped on
> > Tuesday, before it had time to ferment to any significant alcoholic
> > level? Obviously, OINOS had to "start off" non-alcoholic.
> Dear Mark,
> The Temperance Movement have never forgiven Jesus for turning SO MUCH
> water into wine, after they had all "well drunk"!
I do not doubt that this comment is made with much jocularity and with
tongue bulging the cheek. Even so, it presumes that the "wine" of John 2
was alcoholic: a question which I have commented upon in an earlier post.
But yet more even so, I question whether such a joke about the Temperance
Movement's attitude to Jesus is in good taste or in keeping with the
standards of respecting the views of others and not holding them up to
ridicule which (on other issues and other occasions) are usually rigorously
adhered to on this list.
> If you look at Pharaoh's butler's dream, and Joseph's interpretation of it,
> in the LXX, you will see that the butler actually squeezed the fresh grape
> juice into Pharaoh's cup.
> ... KAI TO POTHRION FARAW EN THi CEIRI MOU: KAI ELABON THN STAFULHN, KAI
> EXEFLIYA AUTHN EIS TO POTHRION, KAI EDWKA TO POTHRION EIS THN CEIRA FARAW.
> (Exodus 40:11 LXX).
> Unfortunately, it doesn't use any word for "juice". 8-(
> But it testifies to the use of freshly squeezed grape juice as a beverage.
Yes it does. Though the actual reference is Genesis 40:11.
So similarly Micah 6:15, where the LXX (as I gave in a previous post) KAI
OINON, KAI OU MH PIHTE ("and you shall tread out ... the wine, and not
drink [it]") shows that what it trodden out is OINOS, and this OINOS they
shall not drink: which indicates that the normal expectation (apart from
this promise of judgement) was that they would drink the juice which was
Similarly again, Job 24:11, "they tread the winepresses but suffer thirst",
indicates that the normal expectation was that from what emerged from the
wine presses they would have a thirst-satisfying drink.
Thus grapejuice was one of the liquids which people drank. They also drank
milk, and possibly fruit juices. Primarily they drank water. Joachim
Jeremias says ["The Eucharistic Words of Jesus", pp.50-52], "Wine was drunk
only on festive occasions ... Otherwise wine was generally used in everyday
life only for medicinal purposes; it was regarded as an excellent medicine.
In everyday life, water was drunk. The daily breakfast consisted of 'bread
with salt and a tankard of water', and even at the main meal bread and
water were the chief ingredients .. It is ... quite out of the question
that Jesus and his disciples should have drunk wine with their daily meals."
Rev Dr B. Ward Powers Phone (International): 61-2-9799-7501
10 Grosvenor Crescent Phone (Australia): (02) 9799-7501
SUMMER HILL NSW 2130 email: email@example.com
AUSTRALIA. Director, Tyndale College
B-Greek home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/bgreek
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