RE: [compost_tea] Re: Biodynamics, NPK etc...

From: Stephen Steyn <ssteyn_at_wcaccess.co.za>
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:28:23 +0200

Tad;

Now that’s an excellent post and probably reflects the consensus vi=
ew.

I don’t want to choose sides either, but I remain sceptical of biod=
ynamics, Christianity and even much of medicine. Not through any great know=
ledge I have, it’s just my feeling. How did Steiner come by these r=
ecipes and rituals?

Similarly I have the feeling that many claims have been made about ACT that=
 cannot be supported by rational deductive thought or by well-designed expe=
rimentation.

Similarly I have the feeling that the NPK paradigm is too simplistic, and t=
hat in fact we are fairly far from the truth in our knowledge of crop scien=
ce and nutrition management. In my own experience, I analysed lots of sampl=
es of wheat grain and compared the results to the so-called ideal nutrient =
levels. I multiplied this out by my yield to see the level of nutrients tha=
t were being removed from my fields and arrived at a shortfall. For some ye=
ars I chased the numbers, trying to get my crop to contain the ideal mix of=
 nutrients in sufficient quantities. You never get there.

So now I have cut down on my inputs, we know that wheat (for example) canno=
t get enough nitrogen from the soil to produce sufficient protein to meet r=
eceival standards unless you really push nitrogen levels in the soil. If yo=
u do that then you run into other problems with excessive nitrogen â€=
“ weeds that cannot be controlled for example. Then I discovered that one=
 can get away with very low levels of nitrogen applied to the soil, but to =
get the protein up one could spray nitrogen on the crop leaves. It’=
s more efficient too as wheat plants appear to be only able to take up 50% =
of the soil nitrogen, but if they get it on their leaves they take up about=
 80%. So now we can get it into the plants, and not poison the soil with it=
.

SS

 

From: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com [mailto:compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com] On B=
ehalf Of Tad Hussey
Sent: 10 October 2011 06:54
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: Vortex Brewing Question

 

  

Evan,

 

To me the main benefits of biodynamic farming are not mysterious at all, th=
ough many of the concepts are not currently supported by science. The biod=
ynamic farmer puts in dramatically more time and energy into their land, an=
d all of the biodynamic preps are basically good microbial foods. They pay=
 attention to their land, and I think this is the main benefit.

 

Sure, there's no air diffusers or air lifts in a stream, it's a man-made in=
vention but I don't think this proves a point. If you were to put one in w=
ith an air pump, the stream would have higher DO. Vortexes exist in Nature=
. They raise DO levels. Do they do it as efficiently as an air lift? Not =
according to science.

 

I don't necessarily feel that biodynamics is better than organics as a conc=
ept, though in practice this is probably the case. Many of the commercial =
organic farms are hardly better than their conventional counterparts. I be=
lieve that sustainability and buying local are the more important steps tow=
ards fixing our food system. I do think there are some wonderful sustainab=
le organic farms that would rival any biodymanic farms, like Joel Salatin's=
 farm in Omnivore's Dilemma for example, which he refers to as "beyond orga=
nic."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/environment/2009-04-21-polyface-farms_N=
.htm

 

I struggle a bit with biodynamics from a rational point of view in the same=
 way I struggle with religion to a certain extent. Steiner says to do thes=
e mysterious preps at special times of the year and claims that they have c=
ertain potency and energy. As a gardener/farmer, you're asked to accept th=
ese things at face value because science can't measure everything. Why are=
n't there more studies relating to biodynamics or properties of water? Now=
 are the plants happy due to some magical properties, or the fact that for =
the most part there's good organic practices going on (compost, mulching, m=
inerals, etc...)? I don't see anything special under the microscope when I=
 look at a tea from a vortex brewer vs a more conventional design, and typi=
cally a vortex will have a lower DO unless an airlift or diffuser is incorp=
orated. But I'm supposed to accept that a vortex is better because it chan=
ges the properties of the water and imparts energy that we have no way of m=
easuring? All of the word of Steiner? I do love the look of a vortex brew=
er though, it is much more aesthetically pleasing.

 

I don't want you to take this the wrong way. I really respect biodynamic f=
armers, and I think the produce they produce is truly first class. I just =
wish there was more evidence to support the more non-conventional ideas tha=
t biodynamics promotes. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying that so=
me of it makes zero sense to me from a rational point of view and I wish I =
could get an answer that didn't involve me having blind faith (which is iro=
nic because I do consider myself Christian). Maybe I need to do more resea=
rch, or you can point me in the right direction.

 

As a compost tea brewing industry though, I do think it's important that we=
 rely on science as a foundation of our basic practices and beliefs. I thi=
nk ACT still gets a horrible rap, and we come across as snake oil salesmen =
to many people. Consistent brewing using high quality compost, a good brew=
er design (vortex or not), proper nutrient inputs (microbial foods), and di=
rect microscopy to evaluate the tea is very important. I think it's the on=
ly way we will ever gain legitimacy as an industry, both as applicators and=
 brewer manufacturers. There is so much we've already learned about aerate=
d compost teas in the last decade, such as proper micron size (400), desire=
d brewing lengths (typically 24-36 hours), minimum dissolved oxygen levels =
(6mg/l), optimal temps (68F-70F), how fish hydrolysate effects a finished t=
ea, and much much more. I hope we can continue to promote good knowledge a=
nd experimentation as we learn more and more about ACT and the relationship=
 between microbes and plants.

 

Tad

www.kisorganics.com

 

PS: I have chickens so I was curious about your calcium comment. Wasn't a=
ble to find anything online about how chickens produce eggs with low levels=
 of calcium. Everything I could find supported the latter conclusion. I h=
ave to feed my chickens a high calcium diet if I want good eggs that won't =
crack or have soft shells. You may find this link interesting:

 

http://www.afn.org/~poultry/flkman4.htm

 

I have yet to read anything that fully explains how worms convert nutrients=
, which would be a good analogy to your previous post. :)

 

  _____

From: evanfolds <evan_at_progressearth.com>
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2011 7:39 PM
Subject: [compost_tea] Re: Vortex Brewing Question

  

Stephen, have you ever buried a cow horn and/or utilized what is created wi=
thin it on your garden or farm? You should try it.

The horn is actually buried using cow manure to create BD500 and quartz to =
make BD501. The plants and herbs (BD502-508) are created using other means.=
 BD500 is buried during the winter months when the Earth is breathing in, a=
nd BD501 is buried during the summer months when the Earth is breathing out=
. If you dig around there is long term research that confirms the benefits =
of this approach. Here's one. It's interesting to note the data on storage =
losses, which is an indirect association of nutrient density: http://www.jd=
b.se/sbfi/publ/boston/boston7.html

Here's another: http://extension.oregonstate.edu/sorec/sites/default/files/=
comparison.pdf

Not to mention all the vineyards that use these methods. There is no group =
of farmers that pay closer attention to their crops than in viticulture. To=
 me, this is a good mainstream indication that it works.

I've seen some pretty amazing results in personal gardens as well. The dire=
ct benefits really depend on the relative deficiencies in the garden. It se=
ems to fill in the blanks. We call this approach BioEnergetic farming.

Healthy soil is physically, minerally, biologically, and energetically bala=
nced, like four legs of a chair. If one is left out it cannot stand. "Organ=
ics", while better than conventional, is only the materialsitic end of natu=
ral farming. BioEnergetics addresses all four components.

Evan
www.VortexBrewer.com/microbe

--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com> ,=
 "Stephen Steyn" <ssteyn_at_...> wrote:
>
> Hi Tim;
>
> What I was asking about was those things not easily researched, but claim=
ed
> nevertheless by people selling the idea.
>
> Like Steiner's concepts, like putting a concoction of weeds in a cows hor=
n
> and burying it on a full moon evening in a manure pile, muttering strange
> words and then diluting it 6000 times and still be left with a concentrat=
e.
>
> You know what I mean?
>
> The vortex is mean to imbue the water with special properties which scien=
ce
> cannot measure, yet they confer certain properties on the plants when
> watered.
>
> SS
>
>
>
>
>
> From: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com> =
 [mailto:compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>=
 ] On
> Behalf Of Tim Wilson
> Sent: 08 October 2011 18:26
> To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [compost_tea] Re: Vortex Brewing Question
>
>
>
>
>
> Hey Stephen;
>
> That is why the air pump needs to be matched with the volume of water and
> pipe diameter.
>
> I'm not exactly sure what you are asking concerning vortexes. From my
> standpoint a vortex is great for creating a thorough mix with no dead zon=
es.
> There may be some other unknown aspects to what it does to water structur=
e
> but that is not something I know anything about and not something easily
> researched (AFAIK).
>
> Tim
>
> --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>=
  <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> "Stephen Steyn" <ssteyn_at_> wrote:
> >
> > Tim;
> >
> > Maybe, depending on the characteristics of the pump, one need not have =
the
> > diffuser at the bottom of the riser, but partway up the riser. My reaso=
n
> for
> > adding this is that some pumps quickly run out of volume as the
> backpressure
> > increases - until eventually all you are creating is heat with minimal
> flow.
> >
> > Tim, I still worry about the advantages of the Vortex route. What are y=
our
> > gut feelings or findings in this regard?
> >
> > SS
> >
> >
> >
> > From: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com=
> <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com=
> <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> On
> > Behalf Of Tim Wilson
> > Sent: 08 October 2011 03:05
> > To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com> =
 <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [compost_tea] Re: Vortex Brewing Question
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm replying to my own post to keep the information under the correct
> > heading. I wish to point out that in Evan's post under wood chunks in
> > compost he addressed what I said concerning vortexes but seemed to have
> > missed the point I made stating that a vortex can be created in more
> simple
> > fashion using only one riser and return pipe. The water is still allowe=
d
> to
> > take the vortex path which it yearns to and this can be adjusted as to
> > direction and intensity by simply twisting the elbows on the PVC pipe.
> >
> > There may be a possibility even probability that a vortex increases the
> > dissolved oxygen (DO2) in water negligibly, however in this situation,
> > scientifically, applying physics, the DO2 is increased via the use of a=
ir
> > lift(s). Actually up to 10 times.
> >
> > Concerning the use of diffusers, it has been measured by some science g=
uys
> > and by me that by using a diffuser at the base of the airlift riser pip=
e
> one
> > can considerably multiply the DO2, over using no diffusers at all. I ha=
ve
> > posted a couple of papers outlining some studies on airlifts in the fil=
es
> > section. One details some of the math employed, the other is not great =
but
> > does mention the diffuser issue. They will probably both make your eyes
> > glaze over but this is part of what I went through determining my air l=
ift
> > diffusion chamber.
> >
> > I have posted some photos of efforts of some of my students to build
> simple,
> > relatively inexpensive airlift [one is super super cheap $10] and vorte=
x
> > brewers using only one airlift and riser/return pipe. As you can see th=
ere
> > is an acceptable vortex created. They have reported outstanding results=
 to
> > me with their gardens but I'm not one to count on testimonials. Who kno=
ws
> > what they are comparing it to?
> >
> > Just so you know, with my advice, they have all switched the air input =
to
> > the horizontal instead of under the riser pipe.
> >
> > One needs to fiddle [or do the math] to get the correct diameter pipe f=
or
> > the pump. EG. I just ran some trials using 3/4 inch, 1 inch and 1.25 in=
ch
> > pipe with the same pump. The 1 inch and 1.25 inch created an identical
> flow
> > but the turbulence was greater with 1 inch and the flow was greatly
> reduced
> > with the 3/4 inch. Go figure.
> >
> > Salutations,
> > Tim
> > Get a duck
> >
> > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.co=
m> <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> > "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> wrote:
> > >
> > > You can generally follow the instructions to building a vortex brewer
> but
> > save yourself a lot of extra effort by using only one riser pipe. Not o=
nly
> > is the vortex pholosophy subjectively questionable but you can obtain a
> > pretty good vortex with one pipe anyway. Do some research a think about
> it.
> > > http://www.microbeorganics.com/#So_You_Wanna_Build_A_Compost_Tea_Brew=
er
> > > BTW, sure you can dump the compost right into the water, so long as i=
t
> > does not have big chunks.
> > >
> > > Salutations,
> > > Tim
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.=
com>
> <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
> > , "somydi" <somydi_at_> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I am new to brewing and in my research on making a 5 gallon tea
> brewer,
> > I am thinking of making a vortex type. The only information I am not su=
re
> > about is if I should contain the compost in a bag or let it cycle throu=
gh
> > the brewer. If I let it cycle then I will need to think about pipe sizi=
ng?
> > Having read so much on the benefits of compost tea, I am looking forwar=
d
> to
> > making my own so any helpful ideas will be welcomed.
> > > > -John
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

 





Received on Mon Oct 10 2011 - 12:30:53 EDT

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