Srimathe ramanujaya Namaha Dear Bhagavatas, Amidst the deep discussion about a very strong subject by many great bhagavatas let adiyen put forth some clues that might be of some help to the discussions, Sri Pillai ulagariyan in his tattvatrayam says, "sAmsArika pravruththigalil karthruthvam svaroopa prayukthamandru" (33) "guNasamsarkakrutham" (34) "karthruthvam thAn ishvarAdheenam" (35) "seshamAgaiyAvadhu- sandhana kusuma thAmbhoolAdhigalai pOlE avanukku eshta viniyOgArhamAyirukkai" (40) "eppOdu evargalukku lakshanam seshatvaththOdE koodina jnAthruthvam" (61) If one goes through the chit prakaranam in the great work of Sri pillailokacharya Tattvatrayam along with the vyakhyanam then a great clarity can be obtained in this subject. Seshatvam is the svaroopam of a jeevatma ("seshatvamE svaroopa" says Sri PL). But only when the jnanam that has been covered by avidhya glows, one understands his true nature. " jalaththukku agnisamsrushta stAlee samsargaththAlE owshNyasabdhAdhigalundAgirApOlE, AthmAvukku achit sambhandhaththAlE avidya karma vAsanA ruchigal vundAginrana" (46) "achit kazhindhavArE avidhyAdhigal kazhiyum enbargal" So if one accepts his seshatva/paratantriya svaroopam it is nothing but removal of the dirt (avidya/agyanam) that as covered his jnanam all along and made him think that he is svathantran. It is only the realisation and not something that is cultivated. This realisation of our true nature can be obtained only due to the nirheduka krupai of emperuman who does a lot of krushi (paththi uzhavan) to cultivate that "bhakthi roopApanna jnanam" in all of us and credits us all with the profit of the yield, the moksha. We enjoy the ultimate joy without doing anything but just accepting what that lord after so much efforts grants us happily. Like a mother holding the hands of a kid and writing a letter on the paper and then praising the kid for writing correctly emperuman does everything and grants us moksha. But if the kid refuses to write at all then the mother either scolds, advices or sometimes even beats to make the kid write. That is what emperuman also does. The kid has no free will it is governed by the mother similar is the case of all jeevatmas who are none other than the kids of the divine supreme lord. Adiyen apologises for any unknowingly committed mistakes purely due to adiyen's ignorance. Azhvar emperumAnAr Jeeyer thiruvadigalE sharaNam Adiyen ramanuja dAsee Sumithra Varadarajan ----- Original Message ----- From: vaidhehi_nc To: ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 8:37 PM Subject: [ramanuja] Re: Seshatvam and paratantriyam Sri: Srimathe Ramanujaya nama: This post reminded me of the Physicist Einstein's quote: Either you consider everything as God's miracle or human effort(One can't have both as it sounds ridiculous). Which category an individual belongs to is upto the the individual's mental status/growth! > TCA writes:Everyone will then justify every act of their's as that > of the paramAtma's. Dear TCA,How do you explain AzhvArs stance,that is, attributing everything to emperumAn? AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam dAsAnu dAsI NC Nappinnai --- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan@xxxx> wrote: > > Swamin, > > We need not worry, what the lesser developed souls will do. We cannot be thinking > what will happen if they will take advantage of this arguement. > > See it is very clear that Paramatma is everything. We are born as willed by him. We donot have the choice of parents. It is only the subtle soul that controls this entire > drama called life. > > By sadana the jivatma, gets the knowledge. Now people may ask, I want to be Ramanuja > why am i not able to be? Why is it that I go behind women and wine though I want to > lead a pious life? Now where is SWATANTRYAM? The swatantryam of the Jiva is also > able to act only with the will of GOD and paratantryam. > > Hope this clarifies. > > Dasan/raghavan > > vtca <vtca@xxxx> wrote: > > Dear Sriman Vishnu, > > I get the feeling that you are driving toward the idea > that shedding free will or accepting sEshatvam is also > His act and not ours. > > In which case, here's my question: if a soul does not > accept its sEshatva nature or claims it is a swatantra > (and most of us qualify for this) - is that act one of > free will of the jIvAtma or not? I am sure you see my > concern here. Everyone will then justify every act of > their's as that of the paramAtma's. > > adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan > > > --- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Vishnu" <vsmvishnu@xxxx> wrote: > > Now I will ask you one question. The free will or swAtantyram is > shed > > out of our free will or not? > > > > Dasan > > Vishnu > > azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam Yahoo! 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